> Iraqis Furious Over Repeated U.S. Attacks On Mosques

"After being frisked and insulted by U.S. soldiers, Thamil said what most made him angry that they desecrated the holy place with their boots." Now that’s funny.

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Humiliation, humiliation, humiliation, humiliation, humiliation….the west is getting sick of Muslim humiliation…if a daisy cutter two had been dropped on a mosque that harbored terrorists/weapons ages ago, the Islamic ruse of using "holy" places for tactical ends (never mind recruitment of terrorists) might have caused them to think twice long ago.  Islamic barbarity in the world today is the biggest humiliation for the world body at large–maybe a few of the 1.2 million Muslims in the world can think about that…they even butcher their own tribe…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Iraqis Furious Over Repeated U.S. Attacks On Mosques > By Dahr Jamail, IOL Correspondent > BAGHDAD, May 17 (IslamOnline.net) – Away from the policies of pre-dawn > terrifying sweeps, systematic and abhorrent prisoner abuse and > "imprecise" bombings of civilian Iraqi homes, the U.S. occupation > troops have recently embarked on a policy of storming and attacking > mosques, making Iraqis even more bewildered and angry. > Abu Hanifa mosque in Baghdad was the last to witness a U.S. ’sweep’ > with soldiers desecrating the holy place with their boots and throwing > copies of the Noble Qur’an, paying no heed whatsoever to the feelings > of the people they came to "liberate". > "They say they are searching for a killer in the mosque," said Hassam > Aziz Abdul, while he glared at soldiers walking dogs into the mosque. > "But they want to destroy every holy place in my country." > On Sunday, May 16, U.S. soldiers sealed off the mosque in the > Al-Adhamiya district of Baghdad under the pretext of hunting down > "militants" and ammunition caches. > Dogs were brought into the courtyard of the mosque to the fury of the > area’s residents. > Humiliation > Ra’ad Hussam Thamil, a 58 year-old man who was praying inside the > mosque when the soldiers stormed it, said the crowd of 200 people was > held at gunpoint for nearly one hour. > After being frisked and insulted by U.S. soldiers, Thamil said what > most made him angry that they desecrated the holy place with their > boots. > Following that raid, Kassem, a 54 year-old grandfather who works as > one of the guards at the mosque, said a U.S. soldier hit him in the > forehead with the butt of an M-16 rifle. > "When I fell to the ground they kicked me. They came to humiliate the > people of Islam. Why else? We have no guns here, no mujahedeen > [fighters]. They want to destroy the Islamic religion." > This is the fourth time Abu Hanifa Mosque has been raided by the > U.S.-led occupation forces since the invasion of the oil-rich country > on March 20, 2003 . The previous raid of the mosque occurred on April > 11. > On April 7, the U.S. occupation military admitted that a Cobra > helicopter slammed a Hell Fire missile and a laser-guided precision > bomb into Abdulaziz Al-Samarai mosque in the restive town of Fallujah, > killing up to 40 people. > ‘Making Things Worse’ > Several preachers in Friday sermons agreed that the Americans did not > pay any attention to the sanctity of mosques. > "What they are doing by entering our mosque and causing destruction is > making things even worse than before," said Imam Muad Al-Adhamy. > The occupation troops withdrew from the mosque after one hour, without > having found weapons or any suspects. But they left the faithful with > deep psychological scars. > Muslim Inaction > Abu Hanifa mosque, according to Professor Adnan Mohammed Salman > Al-Dulainy at the Diwan Wakfa Sunni College in Baghdad , is the > primary Sunni mosque in the area. > "It is also one the most important Sunni mosques in Iraq , as well as > one of the most important in all of the Middle East ," Dulainy told > IOL. > "I call on all of the Arab and Muslim leaders throughout the world to > condemn these actions, and to show their frustration about these > despicable acts," he stated firmly from a microphone inside the mosque > following the U.S. desecration. > "This is a humiliation to Muslims across the world." > Dulainy said he frequently urged the U.S. military occupation in > Baghdad not to attack mosques. > "I have been completely open and clear with the Americans about how > they should behave in our holy places, yet they don’t change how they > treat our mosques," he told IOL. > "This has increased the instability in Iraq ," he stated. "It has > planted hatred in peoples’ hearts towards the Americans." > The raid at Abu Hanifa, coupled with damage suffered during the raid > in April 2004 when gates were smashed open by U.S. tanks, adds to the > outrage of Iraqi Shiites after the partial damage to the dome of Imam > Ali Mosque in An-Najaf. > When contacted by IOL, the occupation’s press information center > declined to comment on the raids. > http://islamonline.net

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Iraqis Furious Over Repeated U.S. Attacks On Mosques By Dahr Jamail, IOL Correspondent   BAGHDAD, May 17 (IslamOnline.net)

> Papers of Sir Mark Sykes Outline > A Legacy of Meddling, Betrayal

Riddle: What’s the difference between today’s Muslim nations and the Third Reich? Answer: 60 years. Yggdrasil

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Papers of Sir Mark Sykes Outline A Legacy of Meddling, Betrayal By STEPHEN J. GLAIN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL HULL, England — The Mideast conflict has produced its share of ghosts, from Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser to Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. If they could communicate with the temporal world, the ghost with the most to say might be the little-known midwife to the modern Middle East, Sir Mark Sykes. To understand why, you have to journey three hours by train from London to this dreary, tapped-out city and take a 15-minute bus ride to the University of Hull, custodian to Sir Mark’s papers. After a day sifting through the trove of memos and letters, the message from the past seems clear: In fashioning his policy for a region more explosive than it has been in years, President George W. Bush will have to cope with a legacy of colonial meddling and betrayal. Sir Mark was a British civil servant who, together with a French diplomat named Francois Picot, secretly carved up what used to be called the Levant into an assortment of monarchies, mandates and emirates. The Sykes-Picot agreement, hatched in smoke-filled salons in Paris, London and Cairo, enshrined Anglo-French imperialist ambitions at the end of World War I. Syria and Lebanon were tucked into the French orbit, while Britain claimed Jordan, Iraq, the Gulf states and the Palestinian Mandate — what is now Israel and the Palestinian Authority. When news of the Sykes-Picot agreement leaked out in late 1917, it was condemned by the Arabs as a violation of Anglo-French pledges for postwar independence. "The promises to the Arabs was a dead paper," wrote T.E. Lawrence in his memoirs. Outrage in the decades following the agreement fueled a pan-Arab uprising that ousted regimes close to the West, sometimes violently. Not much has changed, except that Washington has replaced London and Paris as the target of Arab enmity. Anti-American sentiment, expressed most brutally by October’s bombing of the U.S.S. Cole, is at its highest level in years. Many Arabs see the continued expansion of Jewish settlements and Israel’s sometimes fatal reprisals against stone-throwing Arab youths in the West Bank and Gaza as acts aided and abetted by a U.S. Congress bought and paid for by a Jewish lobby in Washington. Egypt and Jordan, the only Arab regimes formally at peace with Israel, are walking a perilous course between their close association with the U.S. and an Arab street demanding Israeli and, increasingly, American blood. Reconciling Arab antipathy with a commitment to Israel will be a primary challenge for Mr. Bush’s Middle East team, just as it was in the time of Sykes and Picot. Then, as now, Western involvement in the Middle East was often perceived as having a pro-Zionist bias that, in the Mideast, eroded Western prestige and threatened the integrity of pro-West regimes. No one grappled with the dilemma now facing the Bush team more gamely than Mark Sykes, a contemporary of Lawrence and an Arabist in Kipling’s fashion. Unlike Picot, a veteran diplomat who believed subject peoples should remain under the imperial thumb, Sir Mark defended both Arab nationalism and Zionism. He wrote enthusiastically of how the agreement he helped forge would pave the way for a peaceful and productive "Arab-Jewish combine." In a memo dated July 18, 1917, he decried the "eight centuries of slavery" the Arabs endured under the Ottoman Turks and proclaimed Britain’s post-war policies to be "the liberation of oppressed peoples," both Arab and Jew. As a young man, Sir Mark traveled frequently to the Middle East. A book of the Sykes family history includes a photograph of young Mark on one of his travels. He wears a pith helmet, tweed hunting jacket, riding boots and pinks, and cradles in his arm a large-bore hunting rifle. He is accompanied by Isa, his Bedouin guide, a cook, a waiter, four muleteers and a groom, seven Syrian mules, two horses and a Kurdish sheepdog. Through such austerity was British Orientalism then informed. When war broke out, the 34-year-old Sir Mark was plucked from Parliament and assigned as an Arab expert to the War Office. Reading the Sykes archive, a compendium of typed and hand-written memos, is like listening to the black-box recording of a doomed airliner. Yellowed and musty, the memos weave a cautionary tale of the limits — and dangers — of Great Power influence in the Middle East. Memos written in the early phase of the war reveal a cheery vision of Arab-Jewish harmony free of foreign meddling. In a 1915 memorandum, Sir Mark writes of an opportunity to create a Middle East entente "with no spheres of influence … that must differ strategically and politically from anything that has existed in the past." It is a statement that might not seem out of place at a signing ceremony on the White House lawn. Sir Mark’s optimism is parried by Gilbert Clayton, Britain’s chief representative in Cairo. In a letter to Sykes dated Dec. 15, 1917, he responds prophetically to Sir Mark’s support for a Jewish homeland and the prospects for its peaceful co-existence with Muslim and Christian Arabs. "We will try it," he writes, "but it must be done very cautiously and, honestly, I see no great chance of any real success. It is an attempt to change in a few weeks the traditional sentiment of centuries." Clayton also warns of an Arab backlash in response to Britain’s perceived pro-Zionist bias. "We have to consider whether the situation demands out-and-out support of Zionism at the risk of alienating the Arabs," he writes. "By pushing them as hard as we appear to be doing, we are risking the possibility of Arab unity becoming something like an accomplished fact and being ranged against us." (In the margins of the letter, an unidentified hand notes, "This happened.") In a handwritten postscript, Clayton reiterates, "I wish to point out clearly the dangers and difficulties which exist here." Even pro-Zionists in the British establishment warned that London’s mandate in what was then Palestine would become a quagmire. "We are not going to get anything out of it," writes Lord Robert Cecil in a 1919 memo. "Whoever goes there will have a poor time." Sir Mark never lived to see the West’s Mideast proxies consumed in an anti-Western rage; he died in 1919 at the age of 39. His papers convey a profound reluctance on the part of British foreign officers to get tangled up in the region. Yet hardball geopolitics left them no choice; the Levant was an important corner of the Great Game between East and West for control of Central Asia and remained so right through the Cold War, when the U.S. used its relationship with Israel to prevent Soviet clients Syria and Iraq from menacing Turkey and the Bosporus, the gullet of the Mediterranean. Today, the Soviet Union is no more, the Bosporus is secure, and the political landscape of the Middle East is little like the one that Sir Mark knew, or thought he knew. But the feud between Israel and its Arab neighbors — sometimes cold, now quite hot — goes on, stoked by the embers of another age.

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Check your local newswire of choice… Another one down More to go. Claude

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> Check your local newswire of choice… > Another one down > More to go. > Claude

Yet another vote for Bush!

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>> Check your local newswire of choice… > Another one down > More to go. > Claude >Yet another vote for Bush!

Gadhafi applied for citizenship as well? I musta missed that part. :^) Claude

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> Check your local newswire of choice… > Another one down > More to go.

Projecting power has its place. It is having its desired effect in the Middle East and Libya. I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had a positive effect on some nations that have been doing some things tha were going to eventually get themselves in some serious trouble. Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but I believe, in the context, we have done the right thing, strategically. God bless those who have given their lives, and God bless the innocents who have been killed. I think we are heading-off something potentially far, far worse than 9-11.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Check your local newswire of choice… > Another one down > More to go. >Projecting power has its place. >It is having its desired effect in the Middle >East and Libya. >I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >a positive effect on some nations that have been >doing some things tha were going to eventually >get themselves in some serious trouble.

Absolutely. Not to mention the trouble for the West. >Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >I believe, in the context, we have done the >right thing, strategically. >God bless those who have given their lives, and >God bless the innocents who have been killed.

Amen. >I think we are heading-off something potentially >far, far worse than 9-11.

Yep. Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. Claude

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Check your local newswire of choice… >>Another one down >>More to go. >Projecting power has its place. >It is having its desired effect in the Middle >East and Libya. >I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >a positive effect on some nations that have been >doing some things tha were going to eventually >get themselves in some serious trouble. > Absolutely. > Not to mention the trouble for the West. >Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >I believe, in the context, we have done the >right thing, strategically. >God bless those who have given their lives, and >God bless the innocents who have been killed. > Amen. >I think we are heading-off something potentially >far, far worse than 9-11. > Yep. > Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully.

Me too. I’m worried about North Korea, though. You know they are watching all of this carefully, being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? through negotiations, they are showing signs of coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure too… North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, because North Korea has few lights, due to their horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that damned long ago, if you get my drift. I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous nation, to my way of thinking.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Check your local newswire of choice… >>>Another one down >>>More to go. >>Projecting power has its place. >>It is having its desired effect in the Middle >>East and Libya. >>I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >>a positive effect on some nations that have been >>doing some things tha were going to eventually >>get themselves in some serious trouble. > Absolutely. > Not to mention the trouble for the West. >>Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >>I believe, in the context, we have done the >>right thing, strategically. >>God bless those who have given their lives, and >>God bless the innocents who have been killed. > Amen. >>I think we are heading-off something potentially >>far, far worse than 9-11. > Yep. > Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. >Me too. >I’m worried about North Korea, though. >You know they are watching all of this carefully, >being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? >through negotiations, they are showing signs of >coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… >Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure >too… >North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so >much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly >stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they >might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan >with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy >to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer >they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. >I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the >differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, >because North Korea has few lights, due to their >horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that >damned long ago, if you get my drift. >I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of >doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous >nation, to my way of thinking.

Hard to say about NK They’re not much more isolated, politically than Libya has been. Maybe they’d like to eat and have a warm, lit place to live for a change. I’ve always thought that when the time comes, the Chinese will yank the NK’s leash, anyway. Probably when they ( the Chinese ) can gain something. Time will tell Claude

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Check your local newswire of choice… >>>Another one down >>>More to go. >>Projecting power has its place. >>It is having its desired effect in the Middle >>East and Libya. >>I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >>a positive effect on some nations that have been >>doing some things tha were going to eventually >>get themselves in some serious trouble. > Absolutely. > Not to mention the trouble for the West. >>Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >>I believe, in the context, we have done the >>right thing, strategically. >>God bless those who have given their lives, and >>God bless the innocents who have been killed. > Amen. >>I think we are heading-off something potentially >>far, far worse than 9-11. > Yep. > Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. > Me too. > I’m worried about North Korea, though. > You know they are watching all of this carefully, > being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? > through negotiations, they are showing signs of > coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… > Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure > too… > North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so > much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly > stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they > might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan > with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy > to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer > they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. > I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the > differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, > because North Korea has few lights, due to their > horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that > damned long ago, if you get my drift. > I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of > doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous > nation, to my way of thinking.

I agree, the NK are a scary bunch of deserate and hungry backwoods cousins. But it’s going to be like taming a rattlesnake to bring them up with the rest of us. Who gets to put their hand in the snake sack first?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>Check your local newswire of choice… >>>>Another one down >>>>More to go. >>>Projecting power has its place. >>>It is having its desired effect in the Middle >>>East and Libya. >>>I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >>>a positive effect on some nations that have been >>>doing some things tha were going to eventually >>>get themselves in some serious trouble. >>Absolutely. >>Not to mention the trouble for the West. >>>Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >>>I believe, in the context, we have done the >>>right thing, strategically. >>>God bless those who have given their lives, and >>>God bless the innocents who have been killed. >>Amen. >>>I think we are heading-off something potentially >>>far, far worse than 9-11. >>Yep. >>Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. >Me too. >I’m worried about North Korea, though. >You know they are watching all of this carefully, >being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? >through negotiations, they are showing signs of >coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… >Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure >too… >North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so >much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly >stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they >might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan >with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy >to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer >they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. >I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the >differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, >because North Korea has few lights, due to their >horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that >damned long ago, if you get my drift. >I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of >doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous >nation, to my way of thinking. > I agree, the NK are a scary bunch of deserate and hungry backwoods cousins. > But it’s going to be like taming a rattlesnake to bring them up with the > rest of us. > Who gets to put their hand in the snake sack first?

Well, being a snake person from the tike years, I might disagree with the characterization of NK as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly factor.  All the other differences, we both know well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, to feed itsself. Very unlike NK. However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a wild snake. Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are necessary. All that aside, let’s say

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>>Check your local newswire of choice… >>>>>Another one down >>>>>More to go. >>>>Projecting power has its place. >>>>It is having its desired effect in the Middle >>>>East and Libya. >>>>I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >>>>a positive effect on some nations that have been >>>>doing some things tha were going to eventually >>>>get themselves in some serious trouble. >>>Absolutely. >>>Not to mention the trouble for the West. >>>>Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >>>>I believe, in the context, we have done the >>>>right thing, strategically. >>>>God bless those who have given their lives, and >>>>God bless the innocents who have been killed. >>>Amen. >>>>I think we are heading-off something potentially >>>>far, far worse than 9-11. >>>Yep. >>>Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. >>Me too. >>I’m worried about North Korea, though. >>You know they are watching all of this carefully, >>being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? >>through negotiations, they are showing signs of >>coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… >>Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure >>too… >>North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so >>much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly >>stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they >>might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan >>with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy >>to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer >>they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. >>I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the >>differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, >>because North Korea has few lights, due to their >>horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that >>damned long ago, if you get my drift. >>I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of >>doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous >>nation, to my way of thinking. > I agree, the NK are a scary bunch of deserate and hungry backwoods cousins. > But it’s going to be like taming a rattlesnake to bring them up with the > rest of us. > Who gets to put their hand in the snake sack first? > Well, being a snake person from the tike years, > I might disagree with the characterization of NK > as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly > factor.  All the other differences, we both know > well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing > its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t > threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone > to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. > It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that > different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except > for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, > to feed itsself. > Very unlike NK.

Sure, I didn’t mean to imply that snakes, rattler or otherwise are decietful or evil, just that dealing with NK is going to seem a lot like taming them. Snakes will strike when they are cornered and threatened. But I agree a snake is just being a snake. > However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel > how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, > deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a > wild snake.

Just as a wild snake can eventually become accustomed to humans to the point that it no longer feels threatened, NK if it hopes to survive will have to learn how to deal with contact with the civilized world without going reflexive. > Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually > incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t > get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are > necessary.

Every contact that they have that doesn’t result in them being attacked helps. There is no reason why that cannot go on as long as needed, except, if they freak and strike. > All that aside, let’s say

??

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>>>Check your local newswire of choice… >>>>>>Another one down >>>>>>More to go. >>>>>Projecting power has its place. >>>>>It is having its desired effect in the Middle >>>>>East and Libya. >>>>>I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >>>>>a positive effect on some nations that have been >>>>>doing some things tha were going to eventually >>>>>get themselves in some serious trouble. >>>>Absolutely. >>>>Not to mention the trouble for the West. >>>>>Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >>>>>I believe, in the context, we have done the >>>>>right thing, strategically. >>>>>God bless those who have given their lives, and >>>>>God bless the innocents who have been killed. >>>>Amen. >>>>>I think we are heading-off something potentially >>>>>far, far worse than 9-11. >>>>Yep. >>>>Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. >>>Me too. >>>I’m worried about North Korea, though. >>>You know they are watching all of this carefully, >>>being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? >>>through negotiations, they are showing signs of >>>coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… >>>Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure >>>too… >>>North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so >>>much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly >>>stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they >>>might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan >>>with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy >>>to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer >>>they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. >>>I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the >>>differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, >>>because North Korea has few lights, due to their >>>horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that >>>damned long ago, if you get my drift. >>>I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of >>>doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous >>>nation, to my way of thinking. >>I agree, the NK are a scary bunch of deserate and hungry backwoods > cousins. >>But it’s going to be like taming a rattlesnake to bring them up with the >>rest of us. >>Who gets to put their hand in the snake sack first? >Well, being a snake person from the tike years, >I might disagree with the characterization of NK >as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly >factor.  All the other differences, we both know >well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing >its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t >threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone >to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. >It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that >different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except >for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, >to feed itsself. >Very unlike NK. > Sure, I didn’t mean to imply that snakes, rattler or otherwise > are decietful or evil, just that dealing with NK is going > to seem a lot like taming them. Snakes will strike when they > are cornered and threatened. But I agree a snake is just being a snake. >However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel >how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, >deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a >wild snake. > Just as a wild snake can eventually become accustomed to > humans to the point that it no longer feels threatened, NK > if it hopes to survive will have to learn how to deal with > contact with the civilized world without going reflexive.

An aside…IMO, wild snakes may see the oppotunity in hanging around man-made structures, they ain’t bears, deer, or squirrels in intellect by a long shot. Those mammals change their behavior (intelligently) when in an environment close to humans.  Snakes, IME, may take advantage of human buildings, but they never get any more ‘used to’ people than in the wild…I’ve caught a lot of em…it didn’t much matter where they were, they behaved the same.  They go the opposite direction, every one of them, if they have an ‘out’ regardless of whether they are a barn snake or a snake in the woods. Not that it needs support, but damn, are truly ‘wild’ squirrels a very wiley and difficult animal to hunt.  Not worth it, either, very gamey…best fried (thinly sliced) or cooked a long time. All that is just my experience, but an aside to the kernel of what we are discussing. >Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually >incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t >get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are >necessary. > Every contact that they have that doesn’t result in them being attacked > helps. > There is no reason why that cannot go on as long as needed, except, if they > freak and strike.

I agree. NK is a very dicey matter. And because of other changes in the world…like with the economic engagement in China, perhaps this Stalanist state will change gradually over time….it is a ‘hold the line, and prevent a disaster’ situation…and maybe in 10 or 20 years, things will change from within, IMO. Sometimes buying time is the best option. Attacking them directly would be a disaster, IMHO. >All that aside, let’s say > ??

Editing mistake, there. Merry Christmas! , by the way.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Well, being a snake person from the tike years, >>I might disagree with the characterization of NK >>as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly >>factor.  All the other differences, we both know >>well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing >>its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t >>threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone >>to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. >>It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that >>different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except >>for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, >>to feed itsself. >>Very unlike NK. > Sure, I didn’t mean to imply that snakes, rattler or otherwise > are decietful or evil, just that dealing with NK is going > to seem a lot like taming them. Snakes will strike when they > are cornered and threatened. But I agree a snake is just being a snake. >>However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel >>how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, >>deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a >>wild snake. > Just as a wild snake can eventually become accustomed to > humans to the point that it no longer feels threatened, NK > if it hopes to survive will have to learn how to deal with > contact with the civilized world without going reflexive. > An aside…IMO, wild snakes may see the oppotunity in hanging around > man-made structures, they ain’t bears, deer, or squirrels in > intellect by a long shot.

No that’s true, it’s hard to even ascribe any thought at all to a reptilian brain. Almost certainly there is no self awareness of any sort. I don’t believe that a reptile brain has all the needed components for learning or memory. > Those mammals change their behavior (intelligently) when in an > environment close to humans.  Snakes, IME, may take advantage > of human buildings, but they never get any more ‘used to’ people > than in the wild…I’ve caught a lot of em…it didn’t much matter > where they were, they behaved the same.  They go the opposite > direction, every one of them, if they have an ‘out’ regardless of > whether they are a barn snake or a snake in the woods.

Well, Yeah. But what I meant was more of an intimate contact than just hanging out in the barn or under the garage. I’ve had many snakes that when I first caught them would be striking or trying to for as long as you held them, but after a while they seemed to lose the reflex and as a cold blooded creature, begin to appreciate the mammalian heat. Not that a snake is capable of recognition or reason, but they do seem to be able to cease seeing humans as threats and begin seeing them as, I guess as warm rocks or something. > Not that it needs support, but damn, are truly ‘wild’ squirrels > a very wiley and difficult animal to hunt.  Not worth it, either, > very gamey…best fried (thinly sliced) or cooked a long time.

yep. the best way is to find an oak grove with some nests and sit very still for a long while. Then you’ll only hear them at first. They rarely let themselves be seen and have a way of keeping a tree trunk between you and themselves. You have to be a pretty good shot to hit the little bit of them that you will see. Even when you think you have hit one, they have a weird way of dissappearing half way to the ground. I like them OK, but much prefer rabbits. Easier to hunt and they taste good to boot. i really don’t hunt at all anymore though I am pretty good at it, and could if I had to. it’s just that pulling the skin off of dead things is not my idea of fun really, and the supermarket is usualy pretty well stocked with tasty mammalian carcass snackage. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All that is just my experience, but an aside to the kernel of > what we are discussing. >>Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually >>incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t >>get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are >>necessary. > Every contact that they have that doesn’t result in them being attacked > helps. > There is no reason why that cannot go on as long as needed, except, if they > freak and strike. > I agree. NK is a very dicey matter. > And because of other changes in the world…like with the > economic engagement in China, perhaps this Stalanist state > will change gradually over time….it is a ‘hold the line, > and prevent a disaster’ situation…and maybe in 10 or 20 > years, things will change from within, IMO.

Well, things would have to change I think, I mean, how long can a people go on living on boiled shoes and tree bark? > Sometimes buying time is the best option. > Attacking them directly would be a disaster, IMHO.

True enough, but then again, maybe not attacking them directly will be a disaster too. The whole situation has disaster written all over it either way IMO. >>All that aside, let’s say > ?? > Editing mistake, there.

> Merry Christmas! , by the way.

Back to you!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>Well, being a snake person from the tike years, > >>I might disagree with the characterization of NK > >>as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly > >>factor.  All the other differences, we both know > >>well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing > >>its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t > >>threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone > >>to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. > >>It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that > >>different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except > >>for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, > >>to feed itsself. > >>Very unlike NK. > > Sure, I didn’t mean to imply that snakes, rattler or otherwise > > are decietful or evil, just that dealing with NK is going > > to seem a lot like taming them. Snakes will strike when they > > are cornered and threatened. But I agree a snake is just being a snake. > >>However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel > >>how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, > >>deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a > >>wild snake. > > Just as a wild snake can eventually become accustomed to > > humans to the point that it no longer feels threatened, NK > > if it hopes to survive will have to learn how to deal with > > contact with the civilized world without going reflexive. > An aside…IMO, wild snakes may see the oppotunity in hanging around > man-made structures, they ain’t bears, deer, or squirrels in > intellect by a long shot. > No that’s true, it’s hard to even ascribe any thought at all to a reptilian > brain. > Almost certainly there is no self awareness of any sort. I don’t believe > that > a reptile brain has all the needed components for learning or memory. > Those mammals change their behavior (intelligently) when in an > environment close to humans.  Snakes, IME, may take advantage > of human buildings, but they never get any more ‘used to’ people > than in the wild…I’ve caught a lot of em…it didn’t much matter > where they were, they behaved the same.  They go the opposite > direction, every one of them, if they have an ‘out’ regardless of > whether they are a barn snake or a snake in the woods. > Well, Yeah. But what I meant was more of an intimate contact than > just hanging out in the barn or under the garage. I’ve had many snakes that > when I first caught them would be striking or trying to for as long as you > held > them, but after a while they seemed to lose the reflex and as a cold blooded > creature, > begin to appreciate the mammalian heat. Not that a snake is capable of > recognition > or reason, but they do seem to be able to cease seeing humans as threats and > begin > seeing them as, I guess as warm rocks or something.

I’ve had my share of contact with snakes from numerous geographical locations….  and…  snakes are snakes…  they will do their best to get away, bite you if they feel the need.. and will be ‘a snake’ no matter how you treat them, for however long….  as they say… " A snake, is a snake." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Not that it needs support, but damn, are truly ‘wild’ squirrels > a very wiley and difficult animal to hunt.  Not worth it, either, > very gamey…best fried (thinly sliced) or cooked a long time. > yep. the best way is to find an oak grove with some nests and sit very still > for a long while. > Then you’ll only hear them at first. They rarely let themselves be seen and > have a way of keeping a tree trunk between you and themselves. You have to > be a pretty > good shot to hit the little bit of them that you will see. Even when you > think you have > hit one, they have a weird way of dissappearing half way to the ground. > I like them OK, but much prefer rabbits. Easier to hunt and they taste good > to boot.

I hunted forrest squirels as a kid, with my father…  we used a couple of methods to get them….  We had a ‘call’ that would  get them to come in close enough to shoot them.   Or we’d go with ’squirrel dogs’ that would tree them, and eventually they’d jump…! ! !    It was a moving target shot on a squirrel coming out of the tip-top of a tree..! ! !   And no.. these were not ‘flying squirrels"…    The very first time you experience this it is plenty supprising.  They just  LEAP  from the top of the tree…  and free-fall to the ground… bounce on the leaves and run like the dickens…! ! ! ! The trick is to shoot them on the way down… I’m not a fan of squirrel stew so I gave up hunting them… until they decided they wanted to live in my attic…  then I killed a few, left them where they fell, as a lesson to the others.  It works like a charm, not a squirrel for years. They ARE getting a bit bolder, so it’s time to take a couple of them down to remind the ‘new’ generation that they want to live somewhere OTHER than my attic. >  i really don’t hunt at all anymore though I am pretty good at it, and could > if I had to.

Me too…. > it’s just that pulling the skin off of dead things is not my idea of fun > really, and the supermarket is usualy pretty well stocked with tasty > mammalian carcass snackage.

Agreed…! ! ! ! Ahhhh…..    deceased beast..! ! ! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All that is just my experience, but an aside to the kernel of > what we are discussing. > >>Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually > >>incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t > >>get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are > >>necessary. > > Every contact that they have that doesn’t result in them being attacked > > helps. > > There is no reason why that cannot go on as long as needed, except, if > they > > freak and strike. > I agree. NK is a very dicey matter. > And because of other changes in the world…like with the > economic engagement in China, perhaps this Stalanist state > will change gradually over time….it is a ‘hold the line, > and prevent a disaster’ situation…and maybe in 10 or 20 > years, things will change from within, IMO. > Well, things would have to change I think, I mean, how long can a people > go on living on boiled shoes and tree bark?

Our best move…  IMMHO… would be to insist that the Chinese deal with the NKs… > Sometimes buying time is the best option. > Attacking them directly would be a disaster, IMHO. > True enough, but then again, maybe not attacking them directly will be a > disaster too. > The whole situation has disaster written all over it either way IMO.

Agreed. It must be noted that the NK’s are not NEAR as dumb or stupid as many people think…  they are quite savvy. gtski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>All that aside, let’s say > > ?? > Editing mistake, there. > Merry Christmas! , by the way. > Back to you!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >>>>>In article

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >>Well, being a snake person from the tike years, > > >>I might disagree with the characterization of NK > > >>as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly > > >>factor.  All the other differences, we both know > > >>well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing > > >>its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t > > >>threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone > > >>to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. > > >>It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that > > >>different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except > > >>for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, > > >>to feed itsself. > > >>Very unlike NK. > > > Sure, I didn’t mean to imply that snakes, rattler or otherwise > > > are decietful or evil, just that dealing with NK is going > > > to seem a lot like taming them. Snakes will strike when they > > > are cornered and threatened. But I agree a snake is just being a > snake. > > >>However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel > > >>how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, > > >>deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a > > >>wild snake. > > > Just as a wild snake can eventually become accustomed to > > > humans to the point that it no longer feels threatened, NK > > > if it hopes to survive will have to learn how to deal with > > > contact with the civilized world without going reflexive. > > An aside…IMO, wild snakes may see the oppotunity in hanging around > > man-made structures, they ain’t bears, deer, or squirrels in > > intellect by a long shot. > No that’s true, it’s hard to even ascribe any thought at all to a > reptilian > brain. > Almost certainly there is no self awareness of any sort. I don’t believe > that > a reptile brain has all the needed components for learning or memory. > > Those mammals change their behavior (intelligently) when in an > > environment close to humans.  Snakes, IME, may take advantage > > of human buildings, but they never get any more ‘used to’ people > > than in the wild…I’ve caught a lot of em…it didn’t much matter > > where they were, they behaved the same.  They go the opposite > > direction, every one of them, if they have an ‘out’ regardless of > > whether they are a barn snake or a snake in the woods. > Well, Yeah. But what I meant was more of an intimate contact than > just hanging out in the barn or under the garage. I’ve had many snakes > that > when I first caught them would be striking or trying to for as long as you > held > them, but after a while they seemed to lose the reflex and as a cold > blooded > creature, > begin to appreciate the mammalian heat. Not that a snake is capable of > recognition > or reason, but they do seem to be able to cease seeing humans as threats > and > begin > seeing them as, I guess as warm rocks or something. > I’ve had my share of contact with snakes from numerous geographical > locations….  and…  snakes are snakes…  they will do their best to > get away, bite you if they feel the need.. and will be ‘a snake’ no matter > how you treat them, for however long….  as they say… " A snake, is a > snake."

I had a Boa and a Python for quite a while, and neither one still exhibited much of that reflex. The Boa in fact, actually seemed to LIKE the contact. I also have kept a few Racers, Garters, Cornsnakes, and such, and once, even a baby Timber rattler for a period of a month or two. the Rattler I never felt any need to handle, but all the others got used to me and ceased trying to get away or strike, and would just crawl up on me to soak up warmth. I don’t think it was the scent really, because once they were used to me they were pretty good eith others too, although the Python and the Racers got a little testy and would bit every once in a while. Sounds ugly, but cats bite worse than Pythons do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Not that it needs support, but damn, are truly ‘wild’ squirrels > > a very wiley and difficult animal to hunt.  Not worth it, either, > > very gamey…best fried (thinly sliced) or cooked a long time. > yep. the best way is to find an oak grove with some nests and sit very > still > for a long while. > Then you’ll only hear them at first. They rarely let themselves be seen > and > have a way of keeping a tree trunk between you and themselves. You have to > be a pretty > good shot to hit the little bit of them that you will see. Even when you > think you have > hit one, they have a weird way of dissappearing half way to the ground. > I like them OK, but much prefer rabbits. Easier to hunt and they taste > good > to boot. > I hunted forrest squirels as a kid, with my father…  we used a couple of > methods to get them….  We had a ‘call’ that would  get them to come in > close enough to shoot them.   Or we’d go with ’squirrel dogs’ that would > tree them, and eventually they’d jump…! ! !    It was a moving target shot > on a squirrel coming out of the tip-top of a tree..! ! !   And no.. these > were > not ‘flying squirrels"…    The very first time you experience this it is > plenty supprising.  They just  LEAP  from the top of the tree…  and > free-fall > to the ground… bounce on the leaves and run like the dickens…! ! ! !

LOL, Yeah I’ve seen that. Plenty amazing, Some of those old Oaks that they like are 100ft tall too. > The trick is to shoot them on the way down…

you and your Pop must have hunted them with shotguns I’d say. I used a .22LR bolt with a scope. You’d wait to see their heads poking around the tree, squeeze off and wait to see what happened. Sometimes they drop to the ground like you described, but instead of trying to hit them falling, with a rifle the thing to do is to just get to that spot as soon as you can, If you got him there he would be, but like as not you at least could see where he  ran to and stalk him out again. Sometimes, you’d see them fall,  but they just seem to disappear in midair, never did make the ground. I figure that they grabbed a branch and scrabbled behind the trunk of a nearby tree. Then you could do that madding dance around the tree trunk dance that squirrels do so well, if you could ever find it again. > I’m not a fan of squirrel stew so I gave up hunting them… until they > decided they > wanted to live in my attic…  then I killed a few, left them where they > fell, as > a lesson to the others.  It works like a charm, not a squirrel for years. > They ARE getting a bit bolder, so it’s time to take a couple of them down > to remind the ‘new’ generation that they want to live somewhere OTHER > than my attic.

LOL. I feed them so they don’t eat my garden and clean out the birdfeeders. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  i really don’t hunt at all anymore though I am pretty good at it, and > could > if I had to. > Me too…. > it’s just that pulling the skin off of dead things is not my idea of fun > really, and the supermarket is usualy pretty well stocked with tasty > mammalian carcass snackage. > Agreed…! ! ! ! > Ahhhh…..    deceased beast..! ! ! > > All that is just my experience, but an aside to the kernel of > > what we are discussing. > > >>Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually > > >>incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t > > >>get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are > > >>necessary. > > > Every contact that they have that doesn’t result in them being > attacked > > > helps. > > > There is no reason why that cannot go on as long as needed, except, if > they > > > freak and strike. > > I agree. NK is a very dicey matter. > > And because of other changes in the world…like with the > > economic engagement in China, perhaps this Stalanist state > > will change gradually over time….it is a ‘hold the line, > > and prevent a disaster’ situation…and maybe in 10 or 20 > > years, things will change from within, IMO. > Well, things would have to change I think, I mean, how long can a people > go on living on boiled shoes and tree bark? > Our best move…  IMMHO… would be to insist that the Chinese deal > with the NKs… > > Sometimes buying time is the best option. > > Attacking them directly would be a disaster, IMHO. > True enough, but then again, maybe not attacking them directly will be a > disaster too. > The whole situation has disaster written all over it either way IMO. > Agreed. > It must be noted that the NK’s are not NEAR as dumb or stupid > as many people think…  they are quite savvy. > gtski

Yep, not stupid just sly and stubborn.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Including US civilians killed in Iraq war.  That is my count as of > tonite.  Including the rest of the coalition, it is like 381 or so. > — > As of 8-13-03, in the 146 days since the start of the Iraq War, the US > has suffered 1,895 casualties (6,694 medevac’d)* in the Iraq Theater, > Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Djibouti, Palestine, Israel, Colombia, > Pakistan, the United States, Yemen, Jordan and Liberia – 312 killed, > 1582 wounded (6381 medevac’d) and 1 missing; or 2.1 killed per day. For > the Iraq War, there have been 1,795 US casualties (6,592 medevac’d), 282 > killed and 1513 wounded (6310 medevac’d); or 1.9 killed per day. The > British have suffered 52 killed or missing; their wounded tally is > unknown.  US casualty totals cover both civilian and military victims of > the War on Terror in the locales listed above. British totals cover the > Iraq War only.  A rough though incomplete estimate of Iraqi civilan > casualties so far is 7,870 killed and 19,733 wounded. The cost of the > Iraq War so far has been $74.3 billion. > *The medevac figure includes all troops airlifted home on medevac.  The > figure is higher due to the inclusion of physical and mental illnesses > in the total. > http://tinyurl.com/natv  http://tinyurl.com/m3b4 > http://tinyurl.com/nau9

Hey Free – a new Security report has just appeared on the U. N. site again – looks like they’re back online: Text sans maps: General:   Unconfirmed report, from usually reliable source, suggests that groups of foreign fighters (F.F.) are entering into Iraq via the North-East of Iraq, more particularly trough the mountainous areas of Halabjah.  This region is well known for being a traditional smugglers road between Iran and Iraq.  F.F. groups attempting to sneak into Iraq will find there, a field favouring their insertion and various venal local supports.  .  While in Iraq, theses F.F. groups are reported following "clandestine insertion lines" trough the Province of Diyala and eventually hiding among the local inhabitants in the region of Ramadi, Fallujah and in certain quarters of Baghdad. The new surge of small scale "amateurs" style attacks against C.F. in the Baghdad Region could be attributed at this wave of new arrival without real connexion with the more organised groups linked to the former regime. Some of these F.F. are reported being former Foreigner Taliban having fled Afghanistan and clandestinely travelled trough Iran. There was a surge in number of attacks against C.F. in the area Northwest of Hilla. Baghdad and surrounding regions including the Western Desert:  There were a low number of reported attacks against C.F. into Baghdad City for these last four days.  However the number of attacks in the Baghdad Region, mainly on the HWY 1 on its section between Ramadi and Fallujah and in the all Diyala Provinces, remains the highest of the country.  We have also observed a significant surge in the number of attacks against C.F. in the region south of Baghdad in the belt: Iskandariyah

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit intact while he blew his.   During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I don’t want to smoke.   Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t too easy early on.  It is now. I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this time.  Just hang in there! *hugs* —    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie!        %%      (—-)     ( >__< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~ Quit since 11/01/2001 http://binniebee.com http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

> > By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D > I hope so Binnie!  You know how long I have been struggling with this. > I have never quit during hunting season before.  It was always too easy to > smoke.  In fact my Novender quit was due to the fact that hunting was > drawing to a close & I wouldn’t be able to hide it anymore.  There have been > so many factors this time that would normally sabotouge a quit and yet I’m > still here.  You don’t suppose that this might actually be the one?

Yes, I think that is exactly it, Chris! WTG, GF! :^D You know we’re all behind you! *hugs* BB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Crossing my fingers > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 10 minutes and 9 seconds. > 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.13. Life saved: 1 day, > 15 hours, 5 minutes. > Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first > games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always > the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so > that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired > of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit > so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be > supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I > wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from > smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit > intact while he blew his. > During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without > which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and > work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ > months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) > time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an > apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see > my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and > my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere > three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I > don’t want to smoke. > Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s > work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were > kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke > and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know > you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early > days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t > too easy early on.  It is now. > I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this > time.  Just hang in there! > *hugs* > — >    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie! >        %% >      (—-) >     ( >__< ) >     ^^ ~~ ^^ >     ~f3as3~ > Quit since 11/01/2001 > http://binniebee.com > http://www.cyberdigs.com

–    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie!        %%      (—-)     ( >__< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~ Quit since 11/01/2001 http://binniebee.com http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

Chris this quit is for you. I am a secret smoker during all my quits, I have now remorse about lying to myself. That’s all it is though, Lying. I am not normally telling untruths all the time so it must be the nicobitch dragging me down to its level in  the gutter. Stay vigilant Chris and this hold the nicobitch has will lesson, I know you can do it. Lovin your meter. J

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D

I hope so Binnie!  You know how long I have been struggling with this. I have never quit during hunting season before.  It was always too easy to smoke.  In fact my Novender quit was due to the fact that hunting was drawing to a close & I wouldn’t be able to hide it anymore.  There have been so many factors this time that would normally sabotouge a quit and yet I’m still here.  You don’t suppose that this might actually be the one? Crossing my fingers Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 10 minutes and 9 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.13. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first > games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always > the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so > that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired > of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit > so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be > supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I > wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from > smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit > intact while he blew his. > During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without > which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and > work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ > months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) > time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an > apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see > my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and > my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere > three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I > don’t want to smoke. > Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s > work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were > kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke > and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know > you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early > days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t > too easy early on.  It is now. > I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this > time.  Just hang in there! > *hugs* > — >    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie! >        %% >      (—-) >     ( >__< ) >     ^^ ~~ ^^ >     ~f3as3~ > Quit since 11/01/2001 > http://binniebee.com > http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

> Chris, you’re doing really well!  Glad you’ve got this one figured out. You > are really on your way. > hugs, > elle

Oh gosh I hope so Elle.  I soooo want this. Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 4 minutes and 17 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.11. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he > will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. > No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing. This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Response:

> I really like all this stuff you figure out to make the demon suffer.

Thanks Paul.  I’m having fun with it.  Your going to do just fine Chris. > After he fills him full of arrows, give him a few musket balls too, just for > good measure > Paul D

And then have him stuffed & put on my wall  :) What a trophy that would be! Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 3 minutes and 2 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.11. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nine months, one week, three days, 14 hours, 22 minutes and 53 seconds. > 14229 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,565.06. Life saved: 7 weeks, 9 hours, > 45 minutes. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> Ain’t that the truth?  Keep posting, sweetie….you’re going to be ok this > time.  You seem to have a whole new attitude with this quit that is going to > take you a long way. > Sally

I am even surprizing myself a little.  I wonder where this "strong" me came from?!  Or maybe she was there the whole time, hiding behind an addiction. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do > you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since > you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and > let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> chris_g: > … >WHAT AM I THINKING???? >It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in >the world (to me anyway) > … >OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep >it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you >hear me???   NO WAY!!! > … > Way to go, Chris! Right here is where the battle is won. > Sneak smokes are just one more of nicodemon’s lies. It would only work if the > smoker could do it while keeping it from herself…because the only person you > have to stay true to (in a quit) is yourself.

Well said.  And so true. > Stay strong. You are well on your way

Thanks Maddie.  I mean it. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> —– > Maddie, 5 months

Response:

> Be strong Chris……I know you can do it.   You have been their for me > quit buddies are for ya know…….

Thanks Nancy. I appreciate it. I think this is a turning point in my quit.  I realize that I want to be free of the addiction so bad that I am willing to put up with anything to get there.  I’m having some rough times but it’s OK…….I’m not going to let it break me.  There is WAY to much at stake. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hum…….Trolling along are ya……

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing. This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Be strong Chris……I know you can do it.   You have been their for me quit buddies are for ya know……. I know you can do this.    I live alone, so I’m always answering to myself……  Be strong…. Nancy AKA Taterbug

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Not to worry Susan.  I’ve lived with a hunter long enough to be able to > identify vermin. > Chris > Still 3W+ > Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. > Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? > Oh lookey, here is one!!!! > > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > >> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. > >> He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This > >> means he will be gone alot. > >> And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > >> it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies > >> about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted > >> without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the > >> most.  Awwww……the freedom. > >> WHAT AM I THINKING???? > >> It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > >> overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > >> man in the world (to me anyway) > >> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. > >> "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > >> OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to > >> keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to > >> fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! > >> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > >> since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an > >> archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I > >> warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. > >> Chris > >> f3as3 > >> Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > >> seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. > >> Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? Oh lookey, here is one!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. > He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This > means he will be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies > about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted > without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the > most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > man in the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. > "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to > keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to > fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an > archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I > warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. > Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Not to worry Susan.  I’ve lived with a hunter long enough to be able to identify vermin. Chris Still 3W+

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. > Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? > Oh lookey, here is one!!!! > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! >> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. >> He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This >> means he will be gone alot. >> And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide >> it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies >> about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted >> without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the >> most.  Awwww……the freedom. >> WHAT AM I THINKING???? >> It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >> overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important >> man in the world (to me anyway) >> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. >> "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on >> OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to >> keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to >> fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! >> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And >> since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an >> archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I >> warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. >> Chris >> f3as3 >> Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 >> seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. >> Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Stickhead. Lee OF – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means > he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not > smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.   > This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.   > "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.   > Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale > and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot.

I really like all this stuff you figure out to make the demon suffer. Your going to do just fine Chris. After he fills him full of arrows, give him a few musket balls too, just for good measure Paul D Nine months, one week, three days, 14 hours, 22 minutes and 53 seconds. 14229 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,565.06. Life saved: 7 weeks, 9 hours, 45 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Chris, you’re doing really well!  Glad you’ve got this one figured out.  You are really on your way. hugs, elle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Response:

chris_g: … >WHAT AM I THINKING???? >It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in >the world (to me anyway) … >OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep >it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you >hear me???   NO WAY!!!

… Way to go, Chris! Right here is where the battle is won. Sneak smokes are just one more of nicodemon’s lies. It would only work if the smoker could do it while keeping it from herself…because the only person you have to stay true to (in a quit) is yourself. Stay strong. You are well on your way —– Maddie, 5 months

Response:

I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will be gone alot. And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. WHAT AM I THINKING???? It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in the world (to me anyway) Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just one has to know." OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Ain’t that the truth?  Keep posting, sweetie….you’re going to be ok this time.  You seem to have a whole new attitude with this quit that is going to take you a long way. Sally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will be gone alot. And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. WHAT AM I THINKING???? It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in the world (to me anyway) Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just one has to know." OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Ain’t that the truth?  Keep posting, sweetie….you’re going to be ok this time.  You seem to have a whole new attitude with this quit that is going to take you a long way. Sally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? Oh lookey, here is one!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. > He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This > means he will be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies > about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted > without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the > most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > man in the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. > "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to > keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to > fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an > archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I > warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. > Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Not to worry Susan.  I’ve lived with a hunter long enough to be able to identify vermin. Chris Still 3W+

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. > Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? > Oh lookey, here is one!!!! > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! >> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. >> He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This >> means he will be gone alot. >> And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide >> it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies >> about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted >> without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the >> most.  Awwww……the freedom. >> WHAT AM I THINKING???? >> It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >> overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important >> man in the world (to me anyway) >> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. >> "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on >> OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to >> keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to >> fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! >> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And >> since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an >> archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I >> warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. >> Chris >> f3as3 >> Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 >> seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. >> Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

chris_g: … >WHAT AM I THINKING???? >It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in >the world (to me anyway) … >OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep >it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you >hear me???   NO WAY!!!

… Way to go, Chris! Right here is where the battle is won. Sneak smokes are just one more of nicodemon’s lies. It would only work if the smoker could do it while keeping it from herself…because the only person you have to stay true to (in a quit) is yourself. Stay strong. You are well on your way —– Maddie, 5 months

Response:

> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot.

I really like all this stuff you figure out to make the demon suffer. Your going to do just fine Chris. After he fills him full of arrows, give him a few musket balls too, just for good measure Paul D Nine months, one week, three days, 14 hours, 22 minutes and 53 seconds. 14229 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,565.06. Life saved: 7 weeks, 9 hours, 45 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Chris, you’re doing really well!  Glad you’ve got this one figured out.  You are really on your way. hugs, elle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit intact while he blew his.   During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I don’t want to smoke.   Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t too easy early on.  It is now. I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this time.  Just hang in there! *hugs* —    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie!        %%      (—-)     ( >__< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~ Quit since 11/01/2001 http://binniebee.com http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

Stickhead. Lee OF – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means > he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not > smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.   > This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.   > "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.   > Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale > and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Be strong Chris……I know you can do it.   You have been their for me quit buddies are for ya know……. I know you can do this.    I live alone, so I’m always answering to myself……  Be strong…. Nancy AKA Taterbug

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Not to worry Susan.  I’ve lived with a hunter long enough to be able to > identify vermin. > Chris > Still 3W+ > Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. > Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? > Oh lookey, here is one!!!! > > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > >> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. > >> He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This > >> means he will be gone alot. > >> And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > >> it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies > >> about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted > >> without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the > >> most.  Awwww……the freedom. > >> WHAT AM I THINKING???? > >> It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > >> overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > >> man in the world (to me anyway) > >> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. > >> "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > >> OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to > >> keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to > >> fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! > >> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > >> since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an > >> archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I > >> warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. > >> Chris > >> f3as3 > >> Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > >> seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. > >> Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Hum…….Trolling along are ya……

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing. This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> Be strong Chris……I know you can do it.   You have been their for me > quit buddies are for ya know…….

Thanks Nancy. I appreciate it. I think this is a turning point in my quit.  I realize that I want to be free of the addiction so bad that I am willing to put up with anything to get there.  I’m having some rough times but it’s OK…….I’m not going to let it break me.  There is WAY to much at stake. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> chris_g: > … >WHAT AM I THINKING???? >It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in >the world (to me anyway) > … >OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep >it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you >hear me???   NO WAY!!! > … > Way to go, Chris! Right here is where the battle is won. > Sneak smokes are just one more of nicodemon’s lies. It would only work if the > smoker could do it while keeping it from herself…because the only person you > have to stay true to (in a quit) is yourself.

Well said.  And so true. > Stay strong. You are well on your way

Thanks Maddie.  I mean it. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> —– > Maddie, 5 months

Response:

> Ain’t that the truth?  Keep posting, sweetie….you’re going to be ok this > time.  You seem to have a whole new attitude with this quit that is going to > take you a long way. > Sally

I am even surprizing myself a little.  I wonder where this "strong" me came from?!  Or maybe she was there the whole time, hiding behind an addiction. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do > you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since > you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and > let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> I really like all this stuff you figure out to make the demon suffer.

Thanks Paul.  I’m having fun with it.  Your going to do just fine Chris. > After he fills him full of arrows, give him a few musket balls too, just for > good measure > Paul D

And then have him stuffed & put on my wall  :) What a trophy that would be! Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 3 minutes and 2 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.11. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nine months, one week, three days, 14 hours, 22 minutes and 53 seconds. > 14229 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,565.06. Life saved: 7 weeks, 9 hours, > 45 minutes. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> Chris, you’re doing really well!  Glad you’ve got this one figured out. You > are really on your way. > hugs, > elle

Oh gosh I hope so Elle.  I soooo want this. Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 4 minutes and 17 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.11. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he > will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. > No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing. This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Response:

> By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D

I hope so Binnie!  You know how long I have been struggling with this. I have never quit during hunting season before.  It was always too easy to smoke.  In fact my Novender quit was due to the fact that hunting was drawing to a close & I wouldn’t be able to hide it anymore.  There have been so many factors this time that would normally sabotouge a quit and yet I’m still here.  You don’t suppose that this might actually be the one? Crossing my fingers Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 10 minutes and 9 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.13. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first > games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always > the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so > that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired > of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit > so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be > supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I > wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from > smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit > intact while he blew his. > During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without > which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and > work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ > months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) > time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an > apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see > my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and > my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere > three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I > don’t want to smoke. > Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s > work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were > kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke > and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know > you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early > days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t > too easy early on.  It is now. > I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this > time.  Just hang in there! > *hugs* > — >    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie! >        %% >      (—-) >     ( >__< ) >     ^^ ~~ ^^ >     ~f3as3~ > Quit since 11/01/2001 > http://binniebee.com > http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

Chris this quit is for you. I am a secret smoker during all my quits, I have now remorse about lying to myself. That’s all it is though, Lying. I am not normally telling untruths all the time so it must be the nicobitch dragging me down to its level in  the gutter. Stay vigilant Chris and this hold the nicobitch has will lesson, I know you can do it. Lovin your meter. J

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> > By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D > I hope so Binnie!  You know how long I have been struggling with this. > I have never quit during hunting season before.  It was always too easy to > smoke.  In fact my Novender quit was due to the fact that hunting was > drawing to a close & I wouldn’t be able to hide it anymore.  There have been > so many factors this time that would normally sabotouge a quit and yet I’m > still here.  You don’t suppose that this might actually be the one?

Yes, I think that is exactly it, Chris! WTG, GF! :^D You know we’re all behind you! *hugs* BB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Crossing my fingers > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 10 minutes and 9 seconds. > 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.13. Life saved: 1 day, > 15 hours, 5 minutes. > Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first > games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always > the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so > that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired > of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit > so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be > supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I > wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from > smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit > intact while he blew his. > During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without > which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and > work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ > months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) > time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an > apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see > my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and > my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere > three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I > don’t want to smoke. > Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s > work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were > kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke > and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know > you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early > days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t > too easy early on.  It is now. > I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this > time.  Just hang in there! > *hugs* > — >    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie! >        %% >      (—-) >     ( >__< ) >     ^^ ~~ ^^ >     ~f3as3~ > Quit since 11/01/2001 > http://binniebee.com > http://www.cyberdigs.com

–    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie!        %%      (—-)     ( >__< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~ Quit since 11/01/2001 http://binniebee.com http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

> People like you created that "paranoia"

Nonsense (I don’t use the word BS like you do). Pure, unadulterated nonsense.   Proof is that the paranoia in the Washington DC area is not created by anybody on this news group nor anybody for gun common sense.  It is created by a person who is killing people randomly with, without doubt, an arm you’d justify anybody having. Earl

Response:

Earl quoted me: > People like you created that "paranoia"

and replied: >Nonsense (I don’t use the word BS like >you do). Pure, unadulterated >nonsense.   >Proof is that the paranoia in the >Washington DC area is not created by >anybody on this news group nor anybody >for gun common sense.  It is created >by a person who is killing people >randomly with, without doubt, an arm >you’d

justify anybody having.    Bullshit.  Any "paranoia" is only created by a liberal-dominated "mainstream" media hyping a guy(s) who’s killed far fewer people in over a week than house fires kill <i>daily</i> in America – house fires that go unreported 30 miles away.    These guys (consistently reported by witnesses as two in van or truck) have been hyped out of all context to "everyday" fatality risks in America – particularly when compared to things not almost entirely confined to a 15-mile radius of Washington. <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This part of America must be void of guns >in the hands of the public and is >relatively safe for a sniper on the hunt. >    Anyone blaming the sniper on "gun availability" conveniently forgets that > all but one of his killings have been within 15 miles of Washington, most all > in gun-ban Washington or in very-antigun Maryland – and only one beyond that > radius in gun-laden Virginia. >    Thought for day – this being National Fire Prevention Month: 12 die in home > fires daily in U.S., more than sniper has killed in a week.  Think U.S. home > fire deaths are so ghettoized to one troubled 15-mile radius? > <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather > <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: > official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

That whole area is totally defenseless. The news media is totally mesmerized by this sniper while ignoring the people that were killed and injured in a massive pileup on the freeway in Wisconsin. What the hell, people killed in house fires and cars don’t serve count.

Response:

writes >This part of America must be void of guns in the hands of the public and is >relatively safe for a sniper on the hunt.

What supreme logic!   If it was devoid of guns there would be no sniper. — Gordon

Response:

>What supreme logic!   If it was devoid of >guns there would be no sniper.

   Within the past 24 hours, a bomb killed over 170 people – most from antigun Australia – who were tourists on nearby Bali.  Earlier this week, at least six were killed in a bombing in Finland that some Finn police now think was just a nut kid.      And last 9/11, more Americans were mass-murdered in <I>one hour</i> than in all "mass shootings" combined. <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

Response:

> writes >This part of America must be void of guns in the hands of the public and is >relatively safe for a sniper on the hunt. > What supreme logic!   If it was devoid of guns there would be no sniper. > — > Gordon

It’s a bit superior than yours because there is a sniper and the vast majority in that area are defenseless.

Response:

writes > writes > >This part of America must be void of guns in the hands of the public and is > >relatively safe for a sniper on the hunt. > What supreme logic!   If it was devoid of guns there would be no sniper. > — > Gordon >It’s a bit superior than yours because there is a sniper and the vast majority >in that area are defenseless.

Whatever weapons the victims possessed, they are just as dead. Even in a wartime situation, snipers can usually pick off a fair number before they are spotted and dealt with. Errm, aren’t all your policemen armed? — Gordon

Response:

>Whatever weapons the victims >possessed, they are just as dead.

   What about Dr. Harold Shipman’s <I>hundreds</i> of victims he killed in decades of serial murder in gun-control Britain?  Are they "alive" because Shipman didn’t shoot them with a gun?    Right now, a nurse in Holland is on trial for another Shipman-like serial murder spree; 13 known dead.    But they weren’t shot with guns – so they don’t count. >Even in a wartime situation, snipers can >usually pick off a fair number >before they are spotted and dealt with.

   You know nothing about sniping.  Sniper won’t fire more than two rounds from same place – in order to avoid being shot himself.  Standard military sniper doctrine for decades. >Errm, aren’t all your policemen armed?

   And how many of <I>them</i> have the Washington "snipesr" killed??    <a href="http://www.alamanceind.com/nation/nation_1.html">How skilled are Washington "snipers?" <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > writes >> writes >> >This part of America must be void of guns in the hands of the public and is >> >relatively safe for a sniper on the hunt. >> What supreme logic!   If it was devoid of guns there would be no sniper. >> — >> Gordon >It’s a bit superior than yours because there is a sniper and the vast majority >in that area are defenseless. > Whatever weapons the victims possessed, they are just as dead. > Even in a wartime situation, snipers can usually pick off a fair number > before they are spotted and dealt with. > Errm, aren’t all your policemen armed? > — > Gordon

It’s going to take more than a few armed policeman.

Response:

writes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> writes > >> writes > >> >This part of America must be void of guns in the hands of the public and >is > >> >relatively safe for a sniper on the hunt. > >> What supreme logic!   If it was devoid of guns there would be no sniper. > >> — > >> Gordon > >It’s a bit superior than yours because there is a sniper and the vast >majority > >in that area are defenseless. > Whatever weapons the victims possessed, they are just as dead. > Even in a wartime situation, snipers can usually pick off a fair number > before they are spotted and dealt with. > Errm, aren’t all your policemen armed? >It’s going to take more than a few armed policeman.

But getting back to the subject of citizens carrying guns; after 9 fatal shootings, nobody seems to have got a decent sighting of this sniper chappie, so how the heck are they supposed to take a bead on him and make an accurate shot? — Gordon

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > writes >> writes >> >> writes >> >> >This part of America must be void of guns in the hands of the public and >is >> >> >relatively safe for a sniper on the hunt. >> >> What supreme logic!   If it was devoid of guns there would be no sniper. >> >> — >> >> Gordon >> >It’s a bit superior than yours because there is a sniper and the vast >majority >> >in that area are defenseless. >> Whatever weapons the victims possessed, they are just as dead. >> Even in a wartime situation, snipers can usually pick off a fair number >> before they are spotted and dealt with. >> Errm, aren’t all your policemen armed? >It’s going to take more than a few armed policeman. > But getting back to the subject of citizens carrying guns; after 9 fatal > shootings, nobody seems to have got a decent sighting of this sniper > chappie, so how the heck are they supposed to take a bead on him and > make an accurate shot? > — > Gordon

England is in the same predicament as the DC area, unarmed citizens. How would you get him?

Response:

writes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> writes > >> writes > >> >> writes > >> >> >This part of America must be void of guns in the hands of the public >and > >is > >> >> >relatively safe for a sniper on the hunt. > >> >> What supreme logic!   If it was devoid of guns there would be no sniper. > >> >> — > >> >> Gordon > >> >It’s a bit superior than yours because there is a sniper and the vast > >majority > >> >in that area are defenseless. > >> Whatever weapons the victims possessed, they are just as dead. > >> Even in a wartime situation, snipers can usually pick off a fair number > >> before they are spotted and dealt with. > >> Errm, aren’t all your policemen armed? > >It’s going to take more than a few armed policeman. > But getting back to the subject of citizens carrying guns; after 9 fatal > shootings, nobody seems to have got a decent sighting of this sniper > chappie, so how the heck are they supposed to take a bead on him and > make an accurate shot? > — > Gordon >England is in the same predicament as the DC area, unarmed citizens. How would >you >get him?

We don’t have him, or rather, we don’t have as many of him as you do. — Gordon

Response:

>This part of America must be void of guns >in the hands of the public and is >relatively safe for a sniper on the hunt.

   Anyone blaming the sniper on "gun availability" conveniently forgets that all but one of his killings have been within 15 miles of Washington, most all in gun-ban Washington or in very-antigun Maryland – and only one beyond that radius in gun-laden Virginia.    Thought for day – this being National Fire Prevention Month: 12 die in home fires daily in U.S., more than sniper has killed in a week.  Think U.S. home fire deaths are so ghettoized to one troubled 15-mile radius? <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jim quoted me: >>  If guns were treated legally like cars, >>every 16-year-old would have one. > and replied: >Huh? >    Know any 16-year-old American who <I>isn’t</I> a driver? >    Driving is so universal among all over 16 in America that mass transit has > totally failed to get any significant adult ridership outside of NYC and a few > "college towns" since WWII.  Blue Nation or Red Nation, everywhere but NYC and > "college towns," anyone over 16 seems to drive – even if he’s poor, illiterate, > had many tickets. >>If guns were treated like cars, every >>habitual criminal would have them, >>even ones who habitually misused guns >>- just like the neighbor’s son who > had >>three DUIs by age 21. >Nonsense.  Unliscenced drivers are >treated very harshly in most places.

They sure are. They one that ran a stop sign and clobbered my wife is being treated very harshly. No insurance, won’t pay, skipped town and the police said "sorry about that".. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->    Bull.  Illegal aliens so routinely drive unlicensed that 1/5 of Kalifornia > drivers now do. >>   Guns aren’t treated like cars for the >>best of reasons – one big one > being >>that car owners don’t distrust registering >>them as a slippery slope to >>confiscation also long demanded by >>anticar activists! >The paranoia of the gun nuts shines thru >every time. >    People like you created that "paranoia" – with your endless talk of > confiscating guns.  HCI did more to create such "paranoia" than the NRA could > have dreamed of. >    Thought for the day – from National Fire Prevention Month: 12 people die in > U.S. <i>daily</i> in home fires.  That’s four more than the D.C. sniper has > total in over a week. > <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather > <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: > official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

Response:

Jim quoted me: >If guns were treated like cars, every >>habitual criminal would have >them, even ones who habitually >>misused guns – just like the neighbor’s >son who had three DUIs by age 21.

quoted Jim: >>Nonsense.  Unliscenced drivers are >>>treated very harshly in most places.

and replied (sarcastically): >They sure are. They one that ran a stop >sign and clobbered my wife is being >treated very harshly. No insurance, won’t >pay, skipped town and the police >said "sorry about that"..

   You must have been hit by the uninsured driver who hit my mother and me about five years ago – then fled his second at-fault wreck in two days.  State trooper basically said the hell with it. <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

Response:

>  If guns were treated legally like cars, every 16-year-old would have one.

Huh? >If guns were treated like cars, every habitual criminal would have them, even >ones who habitually misused guns – just like the neighbor’s son who had three >DUIs by age 21.

Nonsense.  Unliscenced drivers are treated very harshly in most places. >   Guns aren’t treated like cars for the best of reasons – one big one being >that car owners don’t distrust registering them as a slippery slope to >confiscation also long demanded by anticar activists!

The paranoia of the gun nuts shines thru every time.

Response:

Jim quoted me: >  If guns were treated legally like cars, >>every 16-year-old would have one.

and replied: >Huh?

   Know any 16-year-old American who <I>isn’t</I> a driver?    Driving is so universal among all over 16 in America that mass transit has totally failed to get any significant adult ridership outside of NYC and a few "college towns" since WWII.  Blue Nation or Red Nation, everywhere but NYC and "college towns," anyone over 16 seems to drive – even if he’s poor, illiterate, had many tickets. >If guns were treated like cars, every >>habitual criminal would have them, >even ones who habitually misused guns >>- just like the neighbor’s son who had >three DUIs by age 21. >Nonsense.  Unliscenced drivers are >treated very harshly in most places.

   Bull.  Illegal aliens so routinely drive unlicensed that 1/5 of Kalifornia drivers now do. >   Guns aren’t treated like cars for the >>best of reasons – one big one being >that car owners don’t distrust registering >>them as a slippery slope to >confiscation also long demanded by >>anticar activists! >The paranoia of the gun nuts shines thru >every time.

   People like you created that "paranoia" – with your endless talk of confiscating guns.  HCI did more to create such "paranoia" than the NRA could have dreamed of.    Thought for the day – from National Fire Prevention Month: 12 people die in U.S. <i>daily</i> in home fires.  That’s four more than the D.C. sniper has total in over a week. <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

Response:

> > All guns SHOULD be registered and fingerprinted.  And all gun owners should > be liscensed. > Just like we do with cars. > There was apparently an additional type of machine used in these crimes > – a while van or truck of some kind. While we’re at it, we better > register all the vehicles and license all the drivers, too… > John Cowart

This part of America must be void of guns in the hands of the public and is relatively safe for a sniper on the hunt.

Response:

John quoted me: >    More Brady lies.  Far more than one >>model .223 rifle is a bolt-action > varmint rifle.

and replied: >Actually, I don’t think the police have >stated that it was a bolt action.

   Nor have they stated that it was from an "assault rifle" – just that either it or a hunting rifle was possible. >The police have probably succeeded in >getting a >count of the number of lands and grooves >and the twist rate from bullet >fragments, and narrowed it down to 4 >models from there.

   I doubt that.  Several bullets have been too mangled to compare.  In any case, .223 ammo at that range disintegrates into about 24 pieces on entering a body – and each is tiny. >At least one bolt action (Winchester) has >the same 1-in-9 twist that is commonly >found in AR-15s.

   I’d guess that almost all noncustom .223 rifles have that rate of twist – as they fire similar bullet weights at similar muzzle velocity. <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

Response:

>All guns SHOULD be registered and >fingerprinted.  And all gun owners should >be liscensed. >Just like we do with cars.

   If guns were treated legally like cars, every 16-year-old would have one. If guns were treated like cars, every habitual criminal would have them, even ones who habitually misused guns – just like the neighbor’s son who had three DUIs by age 21.  Want that?    Guns aren’t treated like cars for the best of reasons – one big one being that car owners don’t distrust registering them as a slippery slope to confiscation also long demanded by anticar activists! <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

Response:

>>These limitations speak to a need for >a national ballistics fingerprinting law for >all firearms. >   Just a backdoor argument for gun registration.

All guns SHOULD be registered and fingerprinted.  And all gun owners should be liscensed. Just like we do with cars.

Response:

>    More Brady lies.  Far more than one model .223 rifle is a bolt-action > varmint rifle.

Actually, I don’t think the police have stated that it was a bolt action. There are certainly any number of AR-15 variations that are accurate enough to be the weapon in this case, and the flat-top models can be easily scoped. The police have probably succeeded in getting a count of the number of lands and grooves and the twist rate from bullet fragments, and narrowed it down to 4 models from there. At least one bolt action (Winchester) has the same 1-in-9 twist that is commonly found in AR-15s. I have no data for the number of lands and grooves. John Cowart

Response:

> All guns SHOULD be registered and fingerprinted.  And all gun owners should > be liscensed. > Just like we do with cars.

There was apparently an additional type of machine used in these crimes – a while van or truck of some kind. While we’re at it, we better register all the vehicles and license all the drivers, too… John Cowart

Response:

Issue: 77 – Wednesday, October 09, 2002 Statement by Sarah Brady on the Sniper Shootings Today, Sarah Brady, Chair of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence united with the Million Mom March, issued the following statement about the sniper shootings in suburban Maryland and the greater Washington, D.C. area: "On behalf of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence united with the Million Mom March, I want to express our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims of these senseless shootings. Gun violence is always devastating to a community, but it is even more horrifying when such violence strikes for no conceivable reason other than to terrorize. "As police try to track down and stop this killer, we do know this: sensible gun laws can help law enforcement solve crimes as well as prevent gun violence.  The unique markings, called the ‘ballistic fingerprint,’ that every gun leaves on a fired bullet or shell casing have always been helpful in investigating shootings.  We have already seen the usefulness of ballistic tests in definitively linking six of the eight shootings to the same firearm. "We have also seen the limitations to ballistic fingerprinting laws in their current form.  Only two states — Maryland and New York — require a record be kept of every new gun’s ballistic fingerprint.  Both states’ laws are relatively new and apply only to handguns, not all long guns, which the weapon in this case almost surely is.  These limitations speak to a need for a national ballistics fingerprinting law for all firearms.  Doesn’t it make sense for us to give law enforcement the tools they need in order to solve such crimes? "Furthermore, according to police, the shooter could be using one of four possible firearms to carry out this shooting spree.  Three of the four are assault rifles.  It’s important to remember that the federal assault weapons ban <http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/gunlaws/awb.asp>  expires in September 2004.  We do not want to put more military-style weapons capable of such devastation and worse back on our streets. "The National Rifle Association, which claims to be on the side of law enforcement, fought the assault weapons ban and it fights ballistic fingerprinting laws.  Instead of supporting measures that would help police solve crimes and prevent gun violence, it promotes the dangerous notion that ‘an armed society is a polite society.’  Sadly, far too many Americans every year pay the consequences of the NRA’s ‘polite society’ with their lives."

Response:

Jim quoted Sarah Brady: > Gun violence is always >devastating to a community, but it is even >more horrifying when such >violence strikes for no conceivable reason >other than to terrorize.

   What about "gun violence" spree killings now makes them any more "devastating" than were the Tylenol poisonings that killed almost exactly the same number of random victims in the Chicago area 20 years ago?    What about "gun violence" spree killings now makes them any more "devastating" than the death of 300 times as many in "boxcutter violence" (or was that "airplane violence") in NYC last 9/1?    Sarah Brady doesn’t give a damn about "violence" – just about guns! >These limitations speak to a need for >a national ballistics fingerprinting law for >all firearms.

   Just a backdoor argument for gun registration.    And – after we saw registration be just a slippery slope to confiscation in Britain, Canada, and Australia – do you think we’d comply with the estimated 250 million guns we already have? >"Furthermore, according to police, the >shooter could be using one of four >possible firearms to carry out this >shooting spree.  Three of the four are >assault rifles.

   More Brady lies.  Far more than one model .223 rifle is a bolt-action varmint rifle. <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

Response:

Jon was excited about his new rifle and wanted to try it out, so he went bear hunting. He spotted a small black bear and shot it. There was then a tap on his shoulder and he turned round to see a larger black bear. The black bear said "You’ve got two choices, I either maul you to death or we have sex." Jon decided to bend over. Even though he felt sore for two weeks, Jon soon recovered and vowed revenge. He headed out on another trip, found the black bear, and shot it. Immediately, there was another tap on his shoulder. This time a big brown bear stood right next to him. The brown bear said, "That was a huge mistake, Jon. You’ve got two choices. Either I maul you to death or we’ll have rough sex." Again, Jon thought it was better to comply. Although he survived, it was several months before Jon finally recovered. Outraged, he headed back to the woods, managed to track down the brown bear and shot it. He felt sweet revenge, but then there was a tap on his shoulder. He turned round to find a gigantic grizzly bear standing there. The grizzly bear said "Admit it, Jon, you don’t come here for the hunting, do you?"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Jon was excited about his new rifle and wanted to try it out, so he >went bear hunting. He spotted a small black bear and shot it. There >was then a tap on his shoulder and he turned round to see a larger >black bear. The black bear said "You’ve got two choices, I either maul >you to death or we have sex." Jon decided to bend over. >Even though he felt sore for two weeks, Jon soon recovered and vowed >revenge. He headed out on another trip, found the black bear, and shot >it. Immediately, there was another tap on his shoulder. This time a >big brown bear stood right next to him. >The brown bear said, "That was a huge mistake, Jon. You’ve got two >choices. Either I maul you to death or we’ll have rough sex." Again, >Jon thought it was better to comply. >Although he survived, it was several months before Jon finally >recovered. Outraged, he headed back to the woods, managed to track >down the brown bear and shot it. He felt sweet revenge, but then there >was a tap on his shoulder. He turned round to find a gigantic grizzly >bear standing there. >The grizzly bear said "Admit it, Jon, you don’t come here for the >hunting, >do you?"

heheheehehehe You’ve done us proud again Steve

Response:

Jon was excited about his new rifle and wanted to try it out, so he went bear hunting. He spotted a small black bear and shot it. There was then a tap on his shoulder and he turned round to see a larger black bear. The black bear said "You’ve got two choices, I either maul you to death or we have sex." Jon decided to bend over. Even though he felt sore for two weeks, Jon soon recovered and vowed revenge. He headed out on another trip, found the black bear, and shot it. Immediately, there was another tap on his shoulder. This time a big brown bear stood right next to him. The brown bear said, "That was a huge mistake, Jon. You’ve got two choices. Either I maul you to death or we’ll have rough sex." Again, Jon thought it was better to comply. Although he survived, it was several months before Jon finally recovered. Outraged, he headed back to the woods, managed to track down the brown bear and shot it. He felt sweet revenge, but then there was a tap on his shoulder. He turned round to find a gigantic grizzly bear standing there. The grizzly bear said "Admit it, Jon, you don’t come here for the hunting, do you?"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Jon was excited about his new rifle and wanted to try it out, so he >went bear hunting. He spotted a small black bear and shot it. There >was then a tap on his shoulder and he turned round to see a larger >black bear. The black bear said "You’ve got two choices, I either maul >you to death or we have sex." Jon decided to bend over. >Even though he felt sore for two weeks, Jon soon recovered and vowed >revenge. He headed out on another trip, found the black bear, and shot >it. Immediately, there was another tap on his shoulder. This time a >big brown bear stood right next to him. >The brown bear said, "That was a huge mistake, Jon. You’ve got two >choices. Either I maul you to death or we’ll have rough sex." Again, >Jon thought it was better to comply. >Although he survived, it was several months before Jon finally >recovered. Outraged, he headed back to the woods, managed to track >down the brown bear and shot it. He felt sweet revenge, but then there >was a tap on his shoulder. He turned round to find a gigantic grizzly >bear standing there. >The grizzly bear said "Admit it, Jon, you don’t come here for the >hunting, >do you?"

heheheehehehe You’ve done us proud again Steve

Response:

There is no reason to believe that Fail Safe bullets are much better / worse than any other Nosler bullet. There is little basis to call expansion "lousy" by just shooting into water- – – that’s the reason for shooting into ballistic gelatin and meat. > I also did an expansion/weight retention test with this ammo using 1 gallon >water jugs. The load was a factory Winchester load in 30/06. Weight retention >was ok, the 180 grain bullet weighed 148 grains after. Expansion was >terrible. >It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded. My buddy did this same test but >used >a 7mmm instead with the same exact results. I would not reccomend them to >anyone. >   Jim

Randy Wakeman Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>   I also did an expansion/weight retention test with this ammo using 1 gallon > water jugs. The load was a factory Winchester load in 30/06. Weight retention > was ok, the 180 grain bullet weighed 148 grains after. Expansion was terrible. > It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded. My buddy did this same test but used > a 7mmm instead with the same exact results. I would not reccomend them to > anyone.

On large, thick skinned game they are designed for penetration rather than expansion.  If you need to break bone on something such as a grizzly/brown bear I can’t think of anything better. akpls Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> There is little basis to call expansion "lousy" by just shooting into water- – > – that’s the reason for shooting into ballistic gelatin and meat.

Sitting on to of my monitor is a 7mm mag slug that I recoverd from under the throat skin of a whitetail I shot in a right-facing quartering-away shot. The fail safe went through nearly all the right-side ribs before stopping under the skin under the chin. It had mushroomed perfectly with 90 degree talon-like petals, all intact. Most of these bullets, however, go all the way through the deer, blacktails included. This slug has been placed back in the cartridge that fired it, just for amusement. The expansion was perfect. The box does say for light thin-skinned game, deer fit this description and I have no reason not to use them. Sorry to hear all the dis-satisfaction with them, but I will continue to use them exclusively, they function as advertised. — http://Sprite.viptx.net/~moomesa/index.html Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> in water, better yet, get some ballistic gelatin, then make

Does anyone have instructions for making Ballistic Gelatin? Or barring that, where is it sold? d.t. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->   I also did an expansion/weight retention test with this ammo using 1 > gallon > water jugs. The load was a factory Winchester load in 30/06. Weight > retention > was ok, the 180 grain bullet weighed 148 grains after. Expansion was > terrible. > It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded. My buddy did this same test but > used > a 7mmm instead with the same exact results. I would not reccomend them to > anyone. > On large, thick skinned game they are designed for penetration rather than > expansion.  If you need to break bone on something such as a grizzly/brown > bear I can’t think of anything better. > akpls

Use a slower heavier calibre with a conventional bullet and it will expand as well as penetrate. Dan Hockly > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>   I also did an expansion/weight retention test with this ammo using 1 gallon > water jugs. The load was a factory Winchester load in 30/06. Weight retention > was ok, the 180 grain bullet weighed 148 grains after. Expansion was terrible. > It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded. My buddy did this same test but used > a 7mmm instead with the same exact results. I would not reccomend them to > anyone.

But the question is, how is the bullet going to react on living tissue?  I’m sure that the people that have tested these bullets used something a little more scientific than milk jugs filled with water.  Try testing these bullets on something a little denser than water.  Use newspaper that’s been soaked in water, better yet, get some ballistic gelatin, then make a definitive statement that expansion was terrible. Fail Safe bullets are "controlled expansion" bullets, they were not designed to open fully on initial impact. — http://www.herefishyfishy.com The Official Website of the ROFBMP Northwoods Classic http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

There is no reason to believe that Fail Safe bullets are much better / worse than any other Nosler bullet. There is little basis to call expansion "lousy" by just shooting into water- – – that’s the reason for shooting into ballistic gelatin and meat.  Hey,,,  I got the water idea from a few different magazines, so it cannot be all that bad. I do understand that shooting live animals might bring different results though. I tested 8 different factory 06 loads last summer, and the Fail Safe expanded by far the worst. Weight retention was good though. The Fail Safe bullet is alot different from the Nosler Partition.I guess i do not know where you get the idea that they are the same. Maybe you are confusing the Federal Premium Nosler Partition load and the Winchester Supreme Partition Gold loads? Here is what i got for results: 1. Winchester Fail Safe 180gr. End weight was 148 grains,it lost 18%. Almost no expansion. By far the worst of the bunch. 2. Winchester Power Point Plus 150gr. End weight was 99 grains, it lost 33%. Good expansion. 3. Remington Core Lokt 180gr. End weight was 131 grains, it lost 27%. Best expansion of the bunch. 4. Nosler Partition 180gr. End weight was 112 grains, it lost 38%. Very good expansion, front core seperated. 5. Winchester Partition Gold 150gr. End weight was 124 grains. it lost 17%. Excellent weight retention and expansion. Very small front core was recovered seperated. 6. Federal Premium Ballistic Tip 165gr. End weight was 66 grains, it lost 60%. Front core seperated completely, causing major weight retention loss. Good expansion otherwise. 7.Winchester Power Point Plus 180gr. End weight was 128 grains, it lost 29%. Very good expansion. 8.Hornady Light Magnum 165gr btsp. End weight was 111 grains, it lost 33%. Very good expansion. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>> Expansion was terrible.  It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded….. > I would not reccomend them to anyone. >On large, thick skinned game they are designed for penetration rather than >expansion.  If you need to break bone on something such as a grizzly/brown >bear I can’t think of anything better.

The hunter has to be wise enough to choose the correct ammunition when going hunting, and this is a good example why  According to the Winchester website, the 150-grain .30-06 FailSafe ammo gives: "Rapid, controlled expansion. Penetrates thin skin, light muscle and bone. For antelope, deer, black bear." The 180-grain FailSafe ammo gives: "Delayed, controlled expansion. Deep penetration through thick, tough skin, heavy muscle tissue and bone. For large, heavy game." Testing the wrong ammunition, or using poor testing techniques, is bound to give inaccurate results.  FailSafe ammo has been used world-wide with great results.  Like any ammo choice however, common sense is required. Jay T Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I recently purchased a new rifle in .300 Win Mag.  I bought a box of Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s opinions on this type of ammo (Fail Safe)?  Depending on the responses I get, I may choose to reload some of these, which leads to me to my next question.  Where can you buy just the Fail Safe bullets, or a similar design of bullet?  Thanks. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>I bought a box of >Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s >opinions on this type of ammo

They are basically Nosler Partition loads- (though coated) and are well proven, as with any previous Nosler P. round. Randy Wakeman Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Howdy! I have a 7mm Rem. Mag and I have used fail safe ammo for taking an elk and a black bear. In both cases the bullet went all the way through on a double lung shot.  I like the ammo; however, I have wondered if maybe some other kind of bullet may be just as good. I don’t reload ammo at this time. Hope this helps. Always, Gene Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I recently purchased a new rifle in .300 Win Mag.  I bought a box of > Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s > opinions on this type of ammo (Fail Safe)?  Depending on the responses I > get, I may choose to reload some of these, which leads to me to my next > question.  Where can you buy just the Fail Safe bullets, or a similar design > of > bullet?  Thanks.

I can’t comment on the Fail Safe in .300WM, but the performance of the 230 grain .338WM on moose has been excellent in my experience.  I also recently conducted a very non-scientific test of various bullet types, one of which was the Fail Safe.  The others were the Barnes X (225 grain) and Swift A-Frame (225 grain), all in .338 WM.  All were loaded with 73 grains of Reloader 22.  I filled a box with phone books, set it up at 100 yards, fired into it and then recovered the bullets.  The Fail Safe penetrated almost 18" and expanded exactly as advertised (4 peeled back petals).  Weight retention was almost 100%.  The A-Frame penetrated 12" and also expanded as advertised (mushroom-like).  Weight retention was about 93%.  The Barnes X penetrated about 10" and split into 2 pieces. Like I said, not a scientific test and certainly not definitive, but it satisfied my curiosity and told me enough to know that I’m sticking with the Fail Safe for large game (moose, bear, etc.) for now.  Not that the others wouldn’t do the job, but the Fail Safe has filled the freezer for me over the past several years.  I intend to try it again with some other bullet types when I get time. I bought my last batch of Fail Safes from Cabela’s, but they are also available from Midway and others.  Hope this helps. akpls Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I tried the fail safe ammo and was disappointed. While clearly well constructed, the ammo is extremely inaccurate in my particular rifle (ruger 77). Instead of 1 inch benchrest groups at 100 yards I was scattering shots about 10 inches apart. Thus my dissapointment is not in the ammo but in the fact that my gun doesn’t "like" the ammo. Dean Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

The FailSafe bullets are reported to me from a guide buddy of mine in Maine as "impressive" in terms of performance.  He’s a realist too.  No BS… Personally I’m not a believer that a whitetail or black bear needs a supreme bullet.  Speer Mag-Tips are my favorite but Hornady Interlock are also good.  If you’re going after the big stuff (Moose / Elk / Big bear) then the extra cash might be justified for the premium bullets.  Fail safe are supposed to be good (as my buddy reported) but they are said to be not so accurate in some rifles.  Also consider, Speer Grand Slam, Nosler Partition, Barnes X, Swift A Frame if you’re going to spend a bunch on the bullets.  The Fail Safe line are expensive. They’ve come down considerably in price since being introduced. Might be worth a try! http://www.midwayusa.com/online/productpage.exe/showproduct?SaleItemI… 2&KeyWord=fail+safe Good Luck… REM7600 > I recently purchased a new rifle in .300 Win Mag.  I bought a box of > Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s > opinions on this type of ammo (Fail Safe)?  Depending on the responses I > get, I may choose to reload some of these, which leads to me to my next > question.  Where can you buy just the Fail Safe bullets, or a similar

design Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I recently purchased a new rifle in .300 Win Mag.  I bought a box of > Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s > opinions on this type of ammo (Fail Safe)?  Depending on the responses I > get, I may choose to reload some of these, which leads to me to my next > question.  Where can you buy just the Fail Safe bullets, or a similar design > of > bullet?  Thanks.

I have shot the failsafe for three years now. They are handloaded 165 gr. for the .300 Win mag. They perform great, three one shot kills on three deer. Two in Utah and one in California. You can buy the bullets from CombinedTechnologies in a varity of Calibur weights. The one draw back is expense. They are very expensive compared to other equally lethal bullets, around thirty or so dollars per box of fifty. I’m not sure they are THAT good for the price, and don’t know if I will spend the money to reload another batch. I think I may stick to the Noslar Ballistic Tip in the 165 or 180 class. Great bullet for a lot less money per cartridge. Good luck with you’re new .300. Anthony Osuna Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I tried the fail safe ammo and was disappointed. While clearly well > constructed, the ammo is extremely inaccurate in my particular rifle (ruger > 77). Instead of 1 inch benchrest groups at 100 yards I was scattering shots > about 10 inches apart. > Thus my dissapointment is not in the ammo but in the fact that my gun > doesn’t "like" the ammo.

In my experience, it’s more difficult to find ammunition a Ruger 77 likes than the opposite. If you found one that will shoot 1" groups, consider yourself lucky. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> disappointed. While clearly well constructed, the ammo is extremely inaccurate > in my particular rifle (ruger 77). Instead of 1 inch benchrest groups at 100 > yards I was scattering shots about 10 inches apart. Thus my dissapointment is > not in the ammo but in the fact that my gun doesn’t "like" the ammo. > In my experience, it’s more difficult to find ammunition a Ruger 77 likes than > the opposite. If you found one that will shoot 1" groups, consider yourself > lucky.

I hunt exclusively with a Ruger M77S in 7mm Mag. with Fail Safes. Thg gun loves this ammo and has performed flawlessly with it. My first kill with the gun was 285 yards on my own land. The deer took a shoulder hit broadside and did not take another step. I have taken an entire box worth of game with this combo and had two misses (offhand shots-no rest) and zero bad kills (hit where I intended, neck or shoulder) in both white and blacktail and hogs. The gun is stock except for the Timney trigger I installed, I had a gunsmith mount the scope when I bought the gun. 5 years now and I have the same zero and 1" groups at 100 yards with no changes. The blacktail I just took was appx. a 200 yard shot from the prone. The two 8 pointers I took, and the doe my 8 yearold took this last weekend were all  at least100 yard shots, and the animals all dropped where they stood. The Fail Safes, while expensive, have let only one doe run more than thirty yards and one box lasted more than four seasons. I am now on my second box. The last bullet of the first box took my recent black tail (one stainless cartridge is on the ground somewhere in Terrell county, fell out of my belt). My 2 cents. — http://Sprite.viptx.net/~moomesa/index.html Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

  I also did an expansion/weight retention test with this ammo using 1 gallon water jugs. The load was a factory Winchester load in 30/06. Weight retention was ok, the 180 grain bullet weighed 148 grains after. Expansion was terrible. It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded. My buddy did this same test but used a 7mmm instead with the same exact results. I would not reccomend them to anyone.    Jim Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>>I bought a box of >Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s >opinions on this type of ammo >They are basically Nosler Partition loads- (though coated) and are well >proven, >as with any previous Nosler P. round.

They are not Nosler partition bullets.  They are a bullet built by Nosler utilizing one of Winchesters patents, hence the name "Combined Technology." The failsafe is a fully encased lead in the rear portion of the bullet (for weight retention) and a copper hollowpoint front.  I have found the bullet to be extremely accurate out of my 7mm STW Mod 70 (sum MOA) and lethal on deer and elk. Carl Degner carldives at aol dot com A fine is a tax for doing wrong.  A Tax is a fine for doing well. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

My son-in-law lives in the Bakersfield California area and is considering the following rifle:  Remington 700 BDL in stainless and synthetic stock, 22-250 calibre.  Main use is long shots at coyotes. Would appreciate any suggestions on where an honest and inexpensive place to purchase this.  Also, can you "mail-order" long guns from out of state, if so, any suggestions on who and where a good supplier is? Also, if anyone has input on other rifle makes or calibres to possibly consider, that would be appreciated as well.  Thanks in advance. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

That is a great gun and bullet for coyotes.  I would only change one thing. I would paint the gun.  Unless the stainless is a dark finish then it will be seen for a long ways by a coyote. Sorry I did not answer your questions. Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.hunting Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 4:39 PM > My son-in-law lives in the Bakersfield California area and is considering > the following rifle:  Remington 700 BDL in stainless and synthetic stock, > 22-250 calibre.  Main use is long shots at coyotes. > Would appreciate any suggestions on where an honest and inexpensive place to > purchase this.  Also, can you "mail-order" long guns from out of state, if > so, any suggestions on who and where a good supplier is? > Also, if anyone has input on other rifle makes or calibres to possibly > consider, that would be appreciated as well.  Thanks in advance. > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> My son-in-law lives in the Bakersfield California area and is considering > the following rifle:  Remington 700 BDL in stainless and synthetic stock, > 22-250 calibre.  Main use is long shots at coyotes. > Would appreciate any suggestions on where an honest and inexpensive place to > purchase this.  Also, can you "mail-order" long guns from out of state, if > so, any suggestions on who and where a good supplier is? > Also, if anyone has input on other rifle makes or calibres to possibly > consider, that would be appreciated as well.  Thanks in advance.

No, you can’t mail order long guns, at least not centerfires … muzzleloaders yes in general, but I’m not sure Californians can.  Gun shops here in Oregon can’t even sell to Californians.   Something about California law and a "drop test."  Sorry, I have no idea where you’d buy a gun in California. The 700 BDL stainless is a good gun and the .22-250 caliber is fine for coyotes.  It is "adequate."   There are other things I like better.   It’s an ok light weight setup, but I prefer the 700 VSSF in .220 Swift and the Sendero SF in .25-’06. I’ve had a couple .22-250s and a couple Swifts; there’s a significant gain when you step up to the Swift, certainly more than the .22-250 fans would like to believe. You might also consider the Winchester 70 "coyote" and Ruger 77 Varmint in .243 if you prefer 6mm cartridges … and the Remington 700 VLS in 6mm and .243. Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>The 700 BDL stainless is a good gun and the .22-250 caliber is fine for >coyotes.  It is "adequate."   There are other things I like better.   It’s an ok >light weight setup, but I prefer the 700 VSSF in .220 Swift and the Sendero SF >in .25-’06. >You might also consider the Winchester 70 "coyote" and Ruger 77 Varmint in .243 >if you prefer 6mm cartridges … and the Remington 700 VLS in 6mm and .243.

I’ll second Tom’s opinion here.  The 25-06 and the .243 are better coyote rounds than the 22-250.  And the bull-barreled Remingtons (Sendero SF and VLS) are better choices than the BDL, unless you’ll be doing a lot of walking.  I’ve got a Sendero SF in 25-06, and it shoots everything I feed it into MOA groups or better, and tuned handloads can hold 0.5 MOA out to 500 yards (that’s a 2.5" group at 500 yards). The 25-06 and .243 move a lot less in the wind, particularly with match bullets.  In addition, they pack a lot more punch on the receiving end. Michael Courtney Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated. > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

While I don’t have the numbers at the moment, the 22 Mag and 22 Long Rifle are not interchangeable. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> > I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be

appreciated. The short answer is NO! The brass case and case head on the .22 Mag are about 0.014" larger diameter than on a .22S/L/LR.   That means a normal .22 will flop around in the chamber, with the case walls unsupported, and a case rupture is likely. That means hot gases going who knows where? The .22Mag bullet is .223 instead of .224, but that wouldn’t matter much as the difference in case size. The Ruger Super Single Six revolver can shoot both types, but the Ruger uses two different cylinders – one for .22 Mag and the other for .22 Short, Long and Long Rifle. — Jim Rogers , NRA member AKA  Coyote Hunter Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated.

Don’t do it.  The .22 Mag is slightly larger in diameter than a .22 long rifle, or any of the other .22 rim fires.  The extra space will cause you no end of trouble. Brian Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Are there adapters that will allow 22 lr to be shot in a 22 mag ? Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> Are there adapters that will allow 22 lr to be shot in > a 22 mag ?

Not that I’m aware of; I’d expect that the difference in case diameter isn’t quite great enough for that to work. Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated. > You probably wouldn’t hurt the gun but you could very likely hurt yourself. > .22 short, long, and long rifle shells have a thinner rim and smaller case > diameter; the thinner rim means it typically won’t reliably fire, but if it > does, the smaller case diameter means it’ll split in the chamber and vent > powder gasses, half burned powder, and brass shrapnel from somewhere or > other.   It’s a really good way to lose an eye.  Don’t do it, don’t even try > it.

Maybe a stupid question for all you experts out there…I’ve never even looked at a .22 Mag…but does the .22 Mag use rim fire or center fire?  If I was a gun designer I think I would make the .22 Mag a centerfire…and therefore reduce the judgement error since the .22 is the all time favorite caliber for getting newbies started… HH Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated.

You probably wouldn’t hurt the gun but you could very likely hurt yourself. .22 short, long, and long rifle shells have a thinner rim and smaller case diameter; the thinner rim means it typically won’t reliably fire, but if it does, the smaller case diameter means it’ll split in the chamber and vent powder gasses, half burned powder, and brass shrapnel from somewhere or other.   It’s a really good way to lose an eye.  Don’t do it, don’t even try it. .22 special (aka .22 WRF) ammo can safely be fired in a .22 magnum gun, but why?  .22 special shells have been in only limited production for 30 years or more and are even more expensive than .22 magnum.   Further, some lots have a thinner rim and will not reliably fire in all .22 magnum chambers. If you’re trying to shoot for cheap, you bought the wrong gun.  The .22 mag is a great little cartridge, but it’s a mite expensive for plinking.  I’d suggest if cost of ammo is a problem, trade it or buy a .22 long rifle. Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Hi Chad,   The answer is a big no!  The 22 mag chamber is larger in diameter. A regular fired in the 22 mag chamber would most likely split.  Then all kinds of bad things happen; escaping gas, unburnt powder, case fragments, squiting everywhere.  And, if you are shooting a rifle guest where your face is located???   Yea, you got it!   There may be something that will shoot ing the 22 mag chamber without bad things happening; but I’ll bet you that it will cost you more than the 22 mag ammo.  Have fun and be safe, Joe > I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated. > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response: