Rifle Recoil
Question:
Would anyone know the retail price for a Lyman .50cal. Great Plains Rifle Cap Lock?? Britt Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
> snip…. > Reaction from that kinetic energy (true recoil) is equal. If it was
different, there would be ballistic tables in > reloading manuals that had muzzle velocity divided by powder amounts. > snip. > My Prof’s explanation was that because of the tapered case, the
pressure builds more gradually > snip… > Robert, from Up North, Wisconsin
Robert, Most of your comments are very good and show much thought. However, when I was in school, two principles we learned in science were conservation of momentum and conservation of energy. Conservation of energy was mostly when converting from one kind of energy to another, the starting and final energys would be the same. ie. energy in gasoline burned up by a car will end up as kinetic energy of motion plus heat. Jeese it been a long time! Conservation of momentum was that the momentum of a system could not change without outside infulence. ie. the momentum on a gun, bullet and gunpowder before fireing and after fireing would be the same. Hence the gun moves in the oppisite direction to the bullet and burned gun powder with a canceling momentum. Note that recoil is momentum not energy. And it cancels the burned gunpowder as well as the bullet. The momentum of the gunpowder is considerable with estimates in some rifle calibers being equal to the bullet momentum. Check it out with your college prof. As a side issue it may be noted that the ratio of recoil energy to bullet energy is the same as the ratio of gun weight to bullet weight. This is due to the energy being a function of momentum times velocity with the gun and bullet haveing the same momentum, but velocity proportional to their weights. This will give a gun of twice the weight only 1/2 the recoil energy. Note that this is what would be called free recoil of the gun and not felt recoil. I fully accept your comments of the ‘felt recoil’ of your .300 H&H. — JerryO Before you buy. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
I’m not sure that I buy that a magnum’s larger case capacity will cause more kick. It might take more powder to get the preasure level in a large case up to the point where it could perform the same task, but the "action" of sending a 150 grain bullet at 2200 FPS is the same (all other things being equal, like throat length, action, etc.), so the "reaction," also known as recoil, should also be the same, no? Flyfisher > Does one cartridge kick more than another? …. > If one had three guns, say, M700 in 300 magnum, .308 and 30-30 and > they were of the same model and weight and loaded both to push a 150 > grain bullet at a given speed, for example 2200 FPS, would recoil be > the same in all guns (as in for every action there is an equal and > opposite re-action) or would the magnum kick more because it would, > perhaps, require more powder to push the bullet?
Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
| Let me throw this up for your consideration….. What does case shape | have to do with "apparent recoil" (recoil is the reaction it takes to | send a bullet of X weight down range at X fps. Mr. Newton was correct, | just do the math) Anyway…… | | I shoot a 300 H&H Model 70 Winchester. I have shot rifles in 300 | Winchester Mag.. and 30-06 in ALMOST identical configurations. Yet the | "apparent recoil" of my 300 H&H is much less than either of the other | rifles. | | Take for example, to drive a 180 gr. bullet at 2700 fps the 300 H&H uses | more IMR 4350 than the other two rifles. One would think that the H&H | would "kick" more. I asked physics professor, and his answer is that | because the H&H head spaces on the belt and is longer and more tapered, | it builds pressure more slowly that the other two that have sharp angles | on the shoulder and head space on the shoulder. That would produce not | more reaction, but a sharper reaction which translates into a sharper | feeling against the shoulder. | | Just a thought | | Robert from Up North, Wisconsin | | Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: | http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ Interesting, but mis informed I fear. My Model 70 in 300 H&H uses about 67gr to go 3000 fps. (180gr bullet) According to Speer, a 30-06 uses about 59 gr to go 2978 fps A Win 300 uses 72gr to go 3049fps. My 300 H&H has a noticebly harder kick than my 30-06, but much less than my friend’s Win300. If the physics prof is right, then it seems that the long tapered case gives me a more gentle push than a Win 300. However all things on the rifle being equal, you really got to consider the amount of powder being burnt. More powder = more hurt. Rogue Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
> Interesting, but mis informed I fear. > My Model 70 in 300 H&H uses about 67gr to go 3000 fps. (180gr bullet) > According to Speer, a 30-06 uses about 59 gr to go 2978 fps > A Win 300 uses 72gr to go 3049fps. > My 300 H&H has a noticebly harder kick than my 30-06, but much less than my friend’s Win300. > If the physics prof is right, then it seems that the long tapered case gives me a more gentle push than a Win 300. > However all things on the rifle being equal, you really got to consider the amount of powder being burnt. > More powder = more hurt. > Rogue
I was using Hornady Handbook, Third Edition, which doesn’t even consider loading a 30-06 above 2800 fps with IMR 4350. I used a program call "Ballistics" that was available as share ware a few years ago. Per that program and Isaac Newton, gun weight, bullet weight, and muzzle velocity being equal, kinetic energy, i.e., muzzle energy is equal. Reaction from that kinetic energy (true recoil) is equal. If it was different, there would be ballistic tables in reloading manuals that had muzzle velocity divided by powder amounts. But all the tables are based on a specific bullet for a given muzzle velocity. My Prof’s explanation was that because of the tapered case, the pressure builds more gradually. Not a gentle push, but a slower building, less sharp push. That is why, he said, 300 H&H’s use a 26 inch barrel, and best results I has were with the slower burning powders. If not less kick, a different, more agreeable kick. The only reason I use IMR 4350 is ALL my hunting loads (my 300 H&H, .280, wife’s 270, dad’s .270, my .243) are at 3000 fps, with a zero at 300 yards, never more than 4.5 inches above or below the line of sight. I think Speer calls that "Maximum Point Blank Range". I can pick up any rifle and not have to think about lead, hold over, or wind drift. For all intent and purpose, they are the same. Did you find your best load with the 180 grain Speer? I use a 190 grain Hornady BTSP at 3000 fps. I can hold 10 out of 10 shots in a 4 inch group at 300 yards, and with a cold barrel, 3 for 3 at 440 yards. I use 68 grains of 4350, that I load with a trickle charger, and I weigh each load. Try it you may be pleased Robert, from Up North, Wisconsin Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
Let me throw this up for your consideration….. What does case shape have to do with "apparent recoil" (recoil is the reaction it takes to send a bullet of X weight down range at X fps. Mr. Newton was correct, just do the math) Anyway…… I shoot a 300 H&H Model 70 Winchester. I have shot rifles in 300 Winchester Mag.. and 30-06 in ALMOST identical configurations. Yet the "apparent recoil" of my 300 H&H is much less than either of the other rifles. Take for example, to drive a 180 gr. bullet at 2700 fps the 300 H&H uses more IMR 4350 than the other two rifles. One would think that the H&H would "kick" more. I asked physics professor, and his answer is that because the H&H head spaces on the belt and is longer and more tapered, it builds pressure more slowly that the other two that have sharp angles on the shoulder and head space on the shoulder. That would produce not more reaction, but a sharper reaction which translates into a sharper feeling against the shoulder. Just a thought Robert from Up North, Wisconsin Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
> A heavier gun will > give less "felt" recoil, but the energy will still be the same.
I believe that is the momentum will still be the same. ie. mass times velocity is constant. (some law passed long ago) Hence if the gun is twice as heavy it must have 1/2 the velocity. 1/2velocity times 1/2velocity times 2mass gives 1/2energy of recoil. — JerryO Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
Recoil is a reaction to the impulse force on the bullet produced by the exploding gases. Initially the bullet is at rest(V=0), its momentum is zero. A split second after the hammer strikes the bullet is moving at 2200 fps, therefore its momentum is Mass x Velocity. Since the bullet was intially at rest the the equation for momentum reduce to Impuse force= Mass x velocity. An impulsive force has a time derivative, the longer the force acts on the mass (bullet) the smaller the reactive force. But exploding gases act for a short time thus producing relatively large reactive forces. A 150 grain bullet is about 8 grams. The reactive force produced by a 150 grain bullet can knock you over if your not expecting it. This force is not totally felt at the shoulder because some of it is absorbed by the rifle being driven backwards. The rifle is initially at rest and a split second after the hammer strikes the rifle has some velocity moving opposite to the bullet. Try shooting a 150grain, 220 grain and an excelerator bullet 55 grains out of an 30-06. The 55 grain feels like a 22 while the 220 grain will make you black and blue. If everything is equal the bullet’s mass will dictate the recoil felt. …..is my favorite color Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
> I’m not sure that I buy that a magnum’s larger case capacity will cause more > kick. It might take more powder to get the preasure level in a large case > up to the point where it could perform the same task, but the "action" of > sending a 150 grain bullet at 2200 FPS is the same (all other things being > equal, like throat length, action, etc.), so the "reaction," also known as > recoil, should also be the same, no?
The problem with this reasoning is that you need to add the recoil created by the powder gases themselves, which have several times the velocity of the bullet. Remember that a .30 magnum may contain up to 90 grains of powder. While always a significant part of the recoil, the powder gases create the *major* part of the recoil for overbore cartridges. That is why muzzle brakes work. And rockets. — Arne Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
: I don’t believe recoil will be the same in all the firearms in this : example. The problem lies in forgetting that the powder charge must be : considered as part of the ejecta . One will need to use substantially : more powder to achieve the same level of performance in a 300 Win. Mag : (at the postulated level of a 150 gr. slug at 2200 fps) than one would : use in a 30 WCF. This will affect recoil. : A firearm is really just a simple engine, cylinder capacity and gas : pushing a piston. The larger the cylinder, the more gas is needed to : push a like size piston at a given speed/distance. : Hope this helps explain something about recoil. Yes, but the piston is a 150grain bullet in all cases, and the cylinder it is being pushed thru is the .3 diameter barrel. Given the initial question, the piston weight, diameter, and speed are all identical. If the three rifles are identical, the kick should be the same. The only varying parameter might be the weight of the rifle itself, i.e. a .300 magnum may have more steel in the barrel than a .308, hence more weight, but this should be a small delta. samg Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> : Does one cartridge kick more than another? > : If one had three guns, say, M700 in 300 magnum, .308 and 30-30 and > : they were of the same model and weight and loaded both to push a 150 > : grain bullet at a given speed, for example 2200 FPS, would recoil be > : the same in all guns (as in for every action there is an equal and > : opposite re-action) or would the magnum kick more because it would, > : perhaps, require more powder to push the bullet? > : I guess what I’m getting at is: If both guns kicked the same and if a > : fellow reloads, and he didn’t mind a heavier longer barreled gun, > : wouldn’t he have a more versatile gun in a magnum? > : True, it wouldn’t be as handy as a short .308 or have a lever action > : but there is something to say for having one gun and being accostomed > : to it. > Mr Newton once said for every action there is an equal and opposite > reaction. If all three rifles shoot the same bullet at the same speed, > then the kick should be equal, assuming that the rifles are identical > weight. However… recoil is a perceived function. Depending on the > angle of the stock to the shoulder, how tight you’re holding the butt > to your shoulder, how thick your jacket is, etc., how much kick you > think you got will differ. > samg >I believe the weight of the powder charge is included with the weight of the >bullet, therefore if you have a larger case and it takes more powder to >produce a specific velocity this would increase the kick.
Bullet weight is bullet weight. Powder weight is Powder weight. — The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson. Straight Shootin Y’all. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Does one cartridge kick more than another? >If one had three guns, say, M700 in 300 magnum, .308 and 30-30 and >they were of the same model and weight and loaded both to push a 150 >grain bullet at a given speed, for example 2200 FPS, would recoil be >the same in all guns (as in for every action there is an equal and >opposite re-action) or would the magnum kick more because it would, >perhaps, require more powder to push the bullet? >I guess what I’m getting at is: If both guns kicked the same and if a >fellow reloads, and he didn’t mind a heavier longer barreled gun, >wouldn’t he have a more versatile gun in a magnum? >True, it wouldn’t be as handy as a short .308 or have a lever action >but there is something to say for having one gun and being accostomed >to it. >Kirill
"Magnum" is a term given to a specific round in a specific caliber to denote more power. A prime example is the .38 Special and the .357 Mag. Same caliber, different velocities. A 150 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps will have 1611.77 foot pounds of energy regardless of the type of weapon it is fired from. A heavier gun will give less "felt" recoil, but the energy will still be the same. — The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson. Straight Shootin Y’all. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
Does one cartridge kick more than another? If one had three guns, say, M700 in 300 magnum, .308 and 30-30 and they were of the same model and weight and loaded both to push a 150 grain bullet at a given speed, for example 2200 FPS, would recoil be the same in all guns (as in for every action there is an equal and opposite re-action) or would the magnum kick more because it would, perhaps, require more powder to push the bullet? I guess what I’m getting at is: If both guns kicked the same and if a fellow reloads, and he didn’t mind a heavier longer barreled gun, wouldn’t he have a more versatile gun in a magnum? True, it wouldn’t be as handy as a short .308 or have a lever action but there is something to say for having one gun and being accostomed to it. Kirill — Kirill Sapelkin Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
: Does one cartridge kick more than another? : If one had three guns, say, M700 in 300 magnum, .308 and 30-30 and : they were of the same model and weight and loaded both to push a 150 : grain bullet at a given speed, for example 2200 FPS, would recoil be : the same in all guns (as in for every action there is an equal and : opposite re-action) or would the magnum kick more because it would, : perhaps, require more powder to push the bullet? : I guess what I’m getting at is: If both guns kicked the same and if a : fellow reloads, and he didn’t mind a heavier longer barreled gun, : wouldn’t he have a more versatile gun in a magnum? : True, it wouldn’t be as handy as a short .308 or have a lever action : but there is something to say for having one gun and being accostomed : to it. Mr Newton once said for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If all three rifles shoot the same bullet at the same speed, then the kick should be equal, assuming that the rifles are identical weight. However… recoil is a perceived function. Depending on the angle of the stock to the shoulder, how tight you’re holding the butt to your shoulder, how thick your jacket is, etc., how much kick you think you got will differ. samg Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
I don’t believe recoil will be the same in all the firearms in this example. The problem lies in forgetting that the powder charge must be considered as part of the ejecta . One will need to use substantially more powder to achieve the same level of performance in a 300 Win. Mag (at the postulated level of a 150 gr. slug at 2200 fps) than one would use in a 30 WCF. This will affect recoil. A firearm is really just a simple engine, cylinder capacity and gas pushing a piston. The larger the cylinder, the more gas is needed to push a like size piston at a given speed/distance. Hope this helps explain something about recoil. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
