.25-20 Cartridge

Question:

Hello Andy ! I posses a Winchester Model 92 WCF .25-20. This gun was inherited from my grandfather and then passed along to me. I know from conversations that this particular Gun – was a lever action saddle gun 20" barrel.  An was used by trappers to bag light skinned game animals at close range. The 25-20 is an excellent youth gun, as well as a fine short range centerfire rifle. I shoot this rifle to shoot porcupines and other small critters also. Ammo is fairly expensive, I use Factory loaded Winchester Arms Ammo.  I have been saving my brass for several seasons. The Super – X Ammo from Winchester, comes factory loaded in 86 grain soft point bullet. It is a rapid expansion or fragmentation on impact round. Here is some ballistic info that I have discovered velocity (fps)                                            Energy(ft-lbs.) Trajectory muzzle    100    200    300    400    500    muzzle 100    200    300    400 500     100    200    300    400    500 1460      1194    1030    931  858   798    407     272   203    165   141 122      -4.1   -14.4  -31.8  -57.3 Good luck and success with this fine rifle. I keep my rifle soaking in oil to make sure the blued finish does not tarnish. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I have a Marlin 94 Classic in 25-20. I shoot handloads exclusively. One of the best bullets I have found for the 25-20 is a cast lead 75 grain gas checked bullet.  The load I have been using is 13.5 grains of Accurate Arms 2200 with a CCI small magnum primer. These chronograph at 1500 fps. I shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with iron sights. You can get the bullets at www.bonusbullets.com Scott Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Recoil tables?

Question:

I’m thinking about purchasing a new rifle.  Browning A-Bolt, left handed.  I already have a Ruger M77 30-06 that I’ve had since youth, but it kicks, and then I flinch.  After years of putting up with it, it’s time to change. I’ve decided to sacrifice some foot pounds at 200 yards for lighter recoil. Is anyone aware of a set of tables that shows the recoil of various calibers with standard factory loads?  I know this will vary somewhat given the gun, the load, etc…. but would like some general guidelines. I’m thinking .308 or .270, but would consider the .260 or .280, or 7×57.  I know most people think I need to carry a Magnum to shoot Elk, but I’ve killed several with the 30-06 using either 165g or 180g bullets with no problems.  I’ll be using it for elk and mule deer only, no varmits, pigs, or moose. Alan Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Alan, Here’s something else to consider.  If you like the rifle that you have and it shoots well, first of all, change the recoil pad to a good Pachmayr or equivilant.  Most factory recoil pads (for lack of a better term) suck.  A good one will reduce felt recoil considerably. Then, have a muzzle brake installed on your existing barrel.  Sure, it will increase the muzzle blast, but you wouldn’t believe the reduction in recoil. I have one on a .300 Win Mag and the felt recoil is less than my son’s 6.5×55 Swedish Mauser. It’s an option that’ll keep you shooting a rifle that you’re familiar with. — http://www.herefishyfishy.com The Official Website of the ROFBMP Northwoods Classic http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Can anyone recommend a good gunsmith in the Idaho Falls, Idaho area who can install a recoil pad and a muzzle brake? Alan Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Here’s a recoil table I found. http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm Good Luck! Bruce L. Nelson www.bucktrack.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m thinking about purchasing a new rifle.  Browning A-Bolt, left handed. I > already have a Ruger M77 30-06 that I’ve had since youth, but it kicks, and > then I flinch.  After years of putting up with it, it’s time to change. > I’ve decided to sacrifice some foot pounds at 200 yards for lighter recoil. > Is anyone aware of a set of tables that shows the recoil of various calibers > with standard factory loads?  I know this will vary somewhat given the gun, > the load, etc…. but would like some general guidelines. > I’m thinking .308 or .270, but would consider the .260 or .280, or 7×57. I > know most people think I need to carry a Magnum to shoot Elk, but I’ve > killed several with the 30-06 using either 165g or 180g bullets with no > problems.  I’ll be using it for elk and mule deer only, no varmits, pigs, or > moose. > Alan > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Hey Alan, why not try going to a heavier stock. Increased weight in the stock can reduce the recoil a lot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.hunting Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 3:28 PM > I’m thinking about purchasing a new rifle.  Browning A-Bolt, left handed. I > already have a Ruger M77 30-06 that I’ve had since youth, but it kicks, and > then I flinch.  After years of putting up with it, it’s time to change. > I’ve decided to sacrifice some foot pounds at 200 yards for lighter recoil. > Is anyone aware of a set of tables that shows the recoil of various calibers > with standard factory loads?  I know this will vary somewhat given the gun, > the load, etc…. but would like some general guidelines. > I’m thinking .308 or .270, but would consider the .260 or .280, or 7×57. I > know most people think I need to carry a Magnum to shoot Elk, but I’ve > killed several with the 30-06 using either 165g or 180g bullets with no > problems.  I’ll be using it for elk and mule deer only, no varmits, pigs, or > moose. > Alan > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Here’s a recoil table I found. http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm Good Luck! Bruce L. Nelson www.bucktrack.com Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I’ve decided to sacrifice some foot pounds at 200 yards for lighter > recoil. Is anyone aware of a set of tables that shows the recoil of > various calibers with standard factory loads?

http://www.accuratereloading.com/recoil.html Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I’m thinking about purchasing a new rifle.  Browning A-Bolt, left handed. I > already have a Ruger M77 30-06 that I’ve had since youth, but it kicks, and > then I flinch.  After years of putting up with it, it’s time to change. > I’m thinking .308 or .270, but would consider the .260 or .280, or 7×57. I > know most people think I need to carry a Magnum to shoot Elk, but I’ve > killed several with the 30-06 using either 165g or 180g bullets with no > problems.  I’ll be using it for elk and mule deer only, no varmits, pigs, or > moose. > Alan

To cut down on perceived recoil, you have 3 choices… heavier rifle, smaller caliber, better recoil pad/fit.  Since your game of choice is Elk & mulies, smaller caliber is probably out.  The caliber’s you mention would be good for deer but marginal, at best, for elk.  A 308 & 270 are very similar to a 30-06 in recoil and ballistics.  A heavier rifle/scope combination may not be a good idea for you; depends on how heavy your current rig is.  That leaves you with recoil pad/fit. Fit is very important and can make a big difference on perceived recoil. Since you’ve had the rifle since youth, I’d guess that you need to look at the fit.  You have changed over the years but the rifle hasn’t.  I recently bought a M70 Winchester in 30-06.  It suffered from accuracy problems and recoil from the bench was punishing.  Changing ammo helped the accuracy problem, changing the stock to a Hogue OM tamed the recoil; it was a little heavier, fit me better and had a built in recoil pad. Of course, none of this should dissuade you from getting a new rifle. Everyone needs one once in a while and the Browning is a good one. Good Luck Roy D Sacramento Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Can anyone recommend a good gunsmith in Idaho Falls, Idaho who could install a recoil pad and a muzzle brake for me? Alan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Alan, > Here’s something else to consider.  If you like the rifle that you have and > it shoots well, first of all, change the recoil pad to a good Pachmayr or > equivilant.  Most factory recoil pads (for lack of a better term) suck.  A > good one will reduce felt recoil considerably. > Then, have a muzzle brake installed on your existing barrel.  Sure, it will > increase the muzzle blast, but you wouldn’t believe the reduction in recoil. > I have one on a .300 Win Mag and the felt recoil is less than my son’s > 6.5×55 Swedish Mauser. > It’s an option that’ll keep you shooting a rifle that you’re familiar with. > — > http://www.herefishyfishy.com > The Official Website of the ROFBMP Northwoods Classic > http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I’ve never seen a recoil table.  A recoil formula is usually used instead. After a search of my reference books failed to produce the formula (though I know I have it somewhere), I tried a search engine which took me the website below. http://www.steveellis.com/RcoilEng.xls (I checked out the formula and it’s good.  We all owe this Steve Ellis is hearty thanks for making this tool available to everyone.  I bookmarked his site.) First thing to do is to establish a benchmark estimate of the level of recoil you’ve been experiencing in your .06. If you shoot factory ammo and don’t know what to put in for powder, I’d say 55 grains is a decent estimate.  Hopefully you know your muzzle velocity; if not try 2800 with the 165 grain and 2700 with the 180. My Ruger Model 77 weighs about 8.5 lbs. with a scope and strap.  However, this is on a scale that weighs in half-pound increments, so it’s not exact.  The Gun Trader’s Guide states that the bare rifle weighs about seven lbs.  By comparison, I have a 24-inch barreled Winchester that weighs 9.5 lbs. on my scale and is described as weighing 7 and 3/4 lbs. in the book. I’m going into a lot of detail about the weight in part because I suspect this is part of your problem.  The Ruger is a lighter than average gun, and if you play with the gun weight in the first column you can see proportional changes in recoil energy.  In other words, the Ruger should have just about 10% more recoil than the Winchester simply because it’s 10% lighter.  So part of your problem is the rifle itself. Obviously you could achieve some recoil reduction by removing your Ruger’s stock, drilling some holes and plugging them with lead, but I don’t recommend this.  The modern trend is toward lighter rifles, and anyone who lives in elk country as you apparently do can appreciate that. Now that you’ve got a handy recoil formula worksheet, all you’ll need to play what-ifs until your eyes glaze over is a reloading manual with powder weights and velocities, plus a copy of Stoeger Publishing’s Gun Trader’s Guide (available at many Wal-Marts) which provides approximate weights for most makes and models of guns. Earlier someone suggested getting a Pachmayer recoil pad.  These do work really well, and if most of your sufferering has been in the shoulder, that just might be the best answer.  But recoil pads don’t reduce muzzle blast or cheekbone punishment. Personally, I hate muzzle breaks.  They simply transfer  the suffering from the shooter to the people near him, and I think they ruin the looks of a gun.  I suspect that 10 or 20 years from now muzzle breaks will be thought of as one of those unfortunate trends which, like the polychoke on shotguns, ruined a lot of really nice guns. By the way, Gun Trader’s Guide gives the weight of a walnut-stocked Browning A-Bolt, non-magnum caliber, 22-inch barrel, as 7 and 1/2 lbs.  I’m guessing a synthetic stock would be even lighter though I can’t say for sure as my issue is from 1994 and doesn’t list many synthetics. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

CVA Magbolt 150

Question:

Before anyone says anything…..I know I probably shouldn’t have bought a cheap rifle About 3 weeks ago, I bought a CVA MagBolt 150 that was on sale at Bass Pro Shops.  Quality of the gun was about what one would expect for 120 bucks. Fired it about 15 to 20 times on the range getting ready for a deer hunt on a Texas WMA.  Thought it was ready even though we had had a couple of misfires. Second morning of the hunt, my 17 year old called me on the radio and said that he had aimed at a doe and all he got from the rifle was a "click". Cap didn’t fire.  Recycled the bolt and tried again……"click". Took the bolt apart when we got back home, and the spring fell out in many pieces with the largest piece of spring about 3/4 of an inch. Luckily, Bass Pro shops stood up and took the d… thing back and allowed me to upgrade to a Knight.  Should have bought the Knight to begin with. It took CVA a week to reply to my email. I have been looking at Inline ML for a few months and done a lot of reaserch. I have looked at CVA, Knight,  White and T/C. I really liked the look of the CVA guns but I have heard they are not the best in quality. I have spoke with a few people who liked them though and have had no problems. I am not sure how well CVA’s customer service is. White Systems makes a good gun but they are pretty pricey. A lot of guys here in the west seem to really like them though. It really was a toss up between Knight and T/C. I liked the looks of the T/C Black Diamond and the Knight Bighorn. I think they are both good guns and most importantly both companys stand behind there product 100%. I ended up getting the Knight (come on Xmas!) because a friend has one and I liked how it shoots. Mark Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Before anyone says anything…..I know I probably shouldn’t have bought a cheap rifle About 3 weeks ago, I bought a CVA MagBolt 150 that was on sale at Bass Pro Shops.  Quality of the gun was about what one would expect for 120 bucks. Fired it about 15 to 20 times on the range getting ready for a deer hunt on a Texas WMA.  Thought it was ready even though we had had a couple of misfires. Second morning of the hunt, my 17 year old called me on the radio and said that he had aimed at a doe and all he got from the rifle was a "click". Cap didn’t fire.  Recycled the bolt and tried again……"click". Took the bolt apart when we got back home, and the spring fell out in many pieces with the largest piece of spring about 3/4 of an inch. Luckily, Bass Pro shops stood up and took the d… thing back and allowed me to upgrade to a Knight.  Should have bought the Knight to begin with. It took CVA a week to reply to my email. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Nosler Ball. Tip in 06 for antelope??

Question:

I am thinking of trying the Nosler 125 gr. Ballistic Tip in my 30-06 for hunting antelope…. I would like to hear from others who have experience with this combo. What was your load? Bullet seating depth? Velocity and barrel length? Accuracy? Bullet performance on game? Were you satisifed with the accuracy and bullet performance? I am concerned with seating that relatively short bullet deep enough Was that a problem for you?   Do you feel it affected accuracy?                                        Lee Carkenord Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

My question is why would you want to use this bullet?  Ballistic tips are great, but why 125 grain?  Why not 150 or 165? I know you can get higher velocities and flatter trajectories with the lighter bullets and that antelope don’t require heavy projectiles, but all I’ve read about the 30.06 indicates it is most accurate in the 150 to 180 range.  Also, the lighter bullets don’t maintain their course down range as well as the heavier bullets, and THAT can be very important on an antelope hunt! I’d go with 165 grain Nosler B.T.s at velocities slightly above mid-range in the loading manuals and practice out to 350 yards.  The larger bullet should also eliminate your concern about being able to seat closer to the lands. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I am thinking of trying the Nosler 125 gr. Ballistic Tip in my 30-06 > for hunting antelope….

I can get close to that…. > I would like to hear from others who have experience with this combo. > What was your load?

.270Win with 130-gr BTs, H4831SC powder, Remington 9_1/2M primers, Winchester brass. > Bullet seating depth?

.180 from lands. > Velocity and barrel length?

2960 +/- 20 fps, 24" bbl. > Accuracy?

> Bullet performance on game?

Excellent, from 245 yds on average. > Were you satisifed with the accuracy and bullet performance?

Yes. > I am concerned with seating that relatively short bullet deep enough > Was that a problem for you?   Do you feel it affected accuracy?

I don’t know the length difference between the 130-gr .270 and the 125-gr .308 bullets, and of course I don’t know the throat depth ("freebore") of your rifle, but I’ve gotten the best accuracy from my rifles when I seat the bullet between .150 – .190 from contact with the lands, calibers .22-250, 6mmRem, .270Win, 7mmRemMag, .308Win.  My .270 has a pretty fair "freebore"; my cartridge OAL exceeds "book" by about a quarter inch when I seat the bullets .180 off the lands.     -jc- Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> My question is why would you want to use this bullet?  Ballistic tips are > great, but why 125 grain?  Why not 150 or 165?

I agree.  When I had an 06, I loaded 165 gr. ballistic tips and had fantastic success with this bullet.  I know that I was using Winchester 760 powder but I don’t remember the grains loaded. With this powder/bullet combination, I was able to hold 1/2 inch groups at 150 yards and was pretty good out to 300. The 165’s seemed to have almost as flat a trajectory as the 150’s, yet they have a lot more downfield energy. Every whitetail that I shot with this round went down in one shot.  Believe me, that was a lot of deer too. — http://www.herefishyfishy.com The Official Website of the ROFBMP Northwoods Classic http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>My question is why would you want to use this bullet?  Ballistic tips are >great, but why 125 grain?  Why not 150 or 165?…. Also, the lighter bullets >don’t maintain their course down range as well as the >heavier bullets, and THAT can be very important on an antelope hunt!

The 125-grain bullet is highly accurate at very long range, but it is a varmint bullet, not a game bullet.  While it may give very quick kills on antleope, it may also damage too much meat or not penetrate when needed.  I too would recommend the 150 or 165-grain bullets for long range antelope hunting.  Their  tougher construction will give better penetration when needed, yet they still expand rapidly on initial contact for quick kills. Jay T Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

What went wrong.

Question:

"Head on" is a tough shot.  On that size of a deer, the chance of it being just a few degrees off from head on is big.  My son shot his first doe in a similar situation.  The bullet did strike very near the aim point, but ran along the rib cage under the sholder blade and exited at the diaphram. This was a 243 w/ 100 gr. Grand Slam bullets.  She ran off, but stopped within my sight, if I stood up.  My son was too short to see her over a small rise, so I finished her. I don’t know if a 7mm-08 would exit or not.  I shot a large doe at 10 yards w/ a 7mm Rem Mag w/ 162 gr bullett and it didn’t exit.  She didn’t go anywhere though!  I don’t recommend this, makes field dressing a little revolting… If the deer isn’t spooked, a head-on shot will usually improve to broad-side if you can wait. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>7mm-08 is an awesome deer gun.  I’ve owned two, loved both, >and been very effective with ‘em…..The cartridge you’re >shooting with the bullet you chose sure isn’t the problem. >It’s user error of some sort.

I’ve got to agree, the cartridge/bullet combo is so well-proven that there is absolutely no question as to its ability on deer-sized game. While it is hard to admit to not placing the bullet where you wanted, and that’s not what the poster wants to hear, it still remains the best explanation.  A low shot just above the sternum inside the rib cage and into the paunch isn’t going to drop many deer at the shot, and the broken leg could have been hit when either too far forward or back ( as the leg swung in stride ). More than once I’ve been positive of the hit as I shot, only to find the animal with the bullet not quite where I thought.  Lots can happen between the brain’s command and the bullet’s impact – and little of that is good. Jay T Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>Last weekend on the Wisconsin opener I shot a 1 1/2 year old buck (about 110 >lbs).  (plus one in the shoulder blade)…… but he kept running. >My questions. >Is a 7mm/08 not enough gun?

I killed two blacktail with a 7-08 this year.  Both were one-shot kills. First was a spike uphill angling away a little at about 75 yards; the bullet went in behind the right shoulder and came out in front of the right shoulder up high.  The deer deer spun, dropped, and died.  The second was a nice 3-pt (8 eastern count) buck that I hith through the back of both lungs at about 50 yards.  He ran about 100 yards.  I think if I’d hit him even an inch further to the front he’d dropped in 25 yards; I only went through the back "lobes" of the lungs. >Is the Federal Premium 140 gr Nosler Partition not the right bullet?

It is a great bullet, although a little tougher than necessary for deer I think.  FWIW, I was shooting Partitions in the above examples, although they were 150’s (my rifle won’t shoot 140’s well, which is too bad).  But yes, it is the right bullet, or at least one of them! >Did the bullet blow up on contact?

No. >Did the bullet just punch a 7 mm hole through?

I bet the frontal shot actually penetrated the lenght of the deer or close to it.  The shoulder shot broke whatever bones it hit and also passed through, would be my guess.  The front half of a partition expands pretty quickly… it shouldn’t have just made 7mm hole in either case.  On my spike, the exit hole was about an inch in diameter, and on the 3-pt it was about 1.5 inches; obviously the bullet did not expand that big so I guess it was bone chunks or debris that blew through along with the bullet. I don’t know what happened, but you were using an excellent deer caliber (one of the best IMHO) and an excellent bullet… -jeff Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->7mm-08 is an awesome deer gun.  I’ve owned two, loved both, >and been very effective with ‘em…..The cartridge you’re >shooting with the bullet you chose sure isn’t the problem. >It’s user error of some sort. > I’ve got to agree, the cartridge/bullet combo is so well-proven that > there is absolutely no question as to its ability on deer-sized game. > While it is hard to admit to not placing the bullet where you wanted, > and that’s not what the poster wants to hear, it still remains the > best explanation.  A low shot just above the sternum inside the rib > cage and into the paunch isn’t going to drop many deer at the shot, > and the broken leg could have been hit when either too far forward or > back ( as the leg swung in stride ). > More than once I’ve been positive of the hit as I shot, only to find > the animal with the bullet not quite where I thought.  Lots can happen > between the brain’s command and the bullet’s impact – and little of > that is good.

Jay, I am starting to think the blood trail ended where I would have found foot prints.  Ie someone is eating my venison sausage. I think you are right.  The first shot was low.  The second I am still sure was good.  Saw the blood spot grow on his shoulder as he ran.  What burns my but far more than someone eating my deer is not knowing for sure. Especially on the shoulder shot. Well, at least I know the caliber and bullet are considered a good fit for deer.  Now I can use all the frustration on extra practice at the range. Thanks Henry Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Last weekend on the Wisconsin opener I shot a 1 1/2 year old buck (about 110 > lbs).  Would have been the first one with the new rifle.  35 yard head on > shot centered between the leg about 5 " up from the brisket.  Can’t verify > the hit but at 35 yards I would need strong proof  to believe I was off by > more then 2".  He took off running and at about 50 yards I hit him square in > the sholder blade (about 1/3 of the way up in the body).  That leg stopped > working and I could see my hit, but he kept running. > Weak blood trail from the first to the second hit.  Found bone fragments at > both locations.  Blood trail kept getting better as I followed it. After > 500 yards it just stopped.  No deer but there was a recently vacated ground > blind 60 yards from the last blood. > I have taken the head on chest shot before with a 12 guage foster slug. > Boom and the deer dropped, struggled for a couple of seconds and it was > over.  The broadside sholder shot is of course text book. > My questions. > Is a 7mm/08 not enough gun? > Is the Federal Premium 140 gr Nosler Partition not the right bullet? > Did the bullet blow up on contact? > Did the bullet just punch a 7 mm hole through? > Henry > 7mm-08 is an awesome deer gun.  I’ve owned two, loved both, and been > very effective with ‘em.  I handload that same 140 grain partition and it works > great for me.    The partitions seem to expand nicely at 7mm-08 velocities > and it’s impossible to blow ‘em up with that cartridge. > I’d suggest the second shot went low and only hit the leg, possibly the bottom > of the chest, but never even got close to the heart or lungs.  I’ve seen that > happen. > I’d suggest the first shot went lower than you think.  Was the deer below you, > or > at your level, but standing on a slope facing downhill toward you?   It would be > very easy with the bullet hitting only 5" above the bottom of the chest, or > especially > if you shot just a bit low, for a bullet hitting that region to rake down > through the > brisket and exit the body without encountering vital organs. > It sounds a whole lot like either you don’t know how to sight your gun in, it > got > dropped and the sights got knocked out of alignment, or you got a bad case > of buck fever.   The cartridge you’re shooting with the bullet you chose sure > isn’t the problem.   It’s user error of some sort. > Tom

Tom, The gun was shooting fine that day (me also I would expect).  The second shot which was about 50 yards was easy to see the point of impact because a small red spot formed and continued to get larger (for the second or so I could see) as the deer ran. The first shot could have been off.  It wouldn’t likely have been a shoulder shot as the deer was running with all 4 legs until the second shot.  I think it was likely low.  I was about 40 feet above with the height of the tree stand and the slope I was on.  I probably hit the brisket.  A lot of bone fragments and not much blood at that spot. The deer ran about 300 yards with the last 200 showing some really good blood.  I think the reason I did not find the buck was the 40 minute wait (being a bowhunter I usually wait 30 minutes) and someone else found him before I did.  He made it that far due to the adrenilin (Sp?) in his system. I know he heard me reposition on the stand and was likely all pumped up before the first shot. I should have waited for a broadside for the 1st shot.  That was my big mistake.  And next time I will not wait more than about 10 minutes (if I think the shot is good). Thanks for the comments. Henry Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Last weekend on the Wisconsin opener I shot a 1 1/2 year old buck (about 110 lbs).  Would have been the first one with the new rifle.  35 yard head on shot centered between the leg about 5 " up from the brisket.  Can’t verify the hit but at 35 yards I would need strong proof  to believe I was off by more then 2".  He took off running and at about 50 yards I hit him square in the sholder blade (about 1/3 of the way up in the body).  That leg stopped working and I could see my hit, but he kept running. Weak blood trail from the first to the second hit.  Found bone fragments at both locations.  Blood trail kept getting better as I followed it.  After 500 yards it just stopped.  No deer but there was a recently vacated ground blind 60 yards from the last blood. I have taken the head on chest shot before with a 12 guage foster slug. Boom and the deer dropped, struggled for a couple of seconds and it was over.  The broadside sholder shot is of course text book. My questions. Is a 7mm/08 not enough gun? Is the Federal Premium 140 gr Nosler Partition not the right bullet? Did the bullet blow up on contact? Did the bullet just punch a 7 mm hole through? Henry Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Last weekend on the Wisconsin opener I shot a 1 1/2 year old buck (about 110 > lbs).  Would have been the first one with the new rifle.  35 yard head on > shot centered between the leg about 5 " up from the brisket.  Can’t verify > the hit but at 35 yards I would need strong proof  to believe I was off by > more then 2".  He took off running and at about 50 yards I hit him square in > the sholder blade (about 1/3 of the way up in the body).  That leg stopped > working and I could see my hit, but he kept running. > Weak blood trail from the first to the second hit.  Found bone fragments at > both locations.  Blood trail kept getting better as I followed it.  After > 500 yards it just stopped.  No deer but there was a recently vacated ground > blind 60 yards from the last blood. > I have taken the head on chest shot before with a 12 guage foster slug. > Boom and the deer dropped, struggled for a couple of seconds and it was > over.  The broadside sholder shot is of course text book. > My questions. > Is a 7mm/08 not enough gun? > Is the Federal Premium 140 gr Nosler Partition not the right bullet? > Did the bullet blow up on contact? > Did the bullet just punch a 7 mm hole through? > Henry

7mm-08 is an awesome deer gun.  I’ve owned two, loved both, and been very effective with ‘em.  I handload that same 140 grain partition and it works great for me.    The partitions seem to expand nicely at 7mm-08 velocities and it’s impossible to blow ‘em up with that cartridge. I’d suggest the second shot went low and only hit the leg, possibly the bottom of the chest, but never even got close to the heart or lungs.  I’ve seen that happen. I’d suggest the first shot went lower than you think.  Was the deer below you, or at your level, but standing on a slope facing downhill toward you?   It would be very easy with the bullet hitting only 5" above the bottom of the chest, or especially if you shot just a bit low, for a bullet hitting that region to rake down through the brisket and exit the body without encountering vital organs. It sounds a whole lot like either you don’t know how to sight your gun in, it got dropped and the sights got knocked out of alignment, or you got a bad case of buck fever.   The cartridge you’re shooting with the bullet you chose sure isn’t the problem.   It’s user error of some sort. Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Savage tactical rifle

Question:

Well, its a little heavy for me to want to tote around all day, but might be a good stand rifle. I thought of  getting one as a coyote rifle here. I have always gotten very good accuracy from the savage rifles. me

> Hi folks, new to this newsgroup and have a question on a rifle I might get, > it is a Savage tactical in a 300 Win Mag. > does anybody her have any comments good or bad about this particular > firearm?? > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi folks, new to this newsgroup and have a question on a rifle I might get, >it is a Savage tactical in a 300 Win Mag. >does anybody her have any comments good or bad about this particular >firearm?? >Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >        http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

I have two savage tact, 223 and 30-06.  Both are very accurate. Both triggers have been replaced or worked  on. You might consider getting a SS model if they make one. Benny Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

heavy and do not try to regulate them, it is useless. I have tactical in Win 308. With hand loads it shoots well below 1 inch on 100 yrs. Today i received a new TIMNEY trigger and i will try to install it.There is also a second guy who makes accesories ( barrels and triggers) for Savage but i was unable to contact him on line. If you have a little bit deeper pocket maybe you should try with JEWEL trigger but iam not sure whether they make triggers for Svage. Regards, PZL 24 Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Hi folks, new to this newsgroup and have a question on a rifle I might get, it is a Savage tactical in a 300 Win Mag. does anybody her have any comments good or bad about this particular firearm?? Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>Hi folks, new to this newsgroup and have a question on a rifle I might get, >it is a Savage tactical in a 300 Win Mag. >does anybody her have any comments good or bad about this particular >firearm??

I had a Savage Tactical in .308 that was a very accurate rifle.  The finish will rust easily in wet conditions, and the trigger is not so good, and mine kicked like hell for a .308 (maybe it didn’t fit me well?),  but it was an accurate rifle. -jeff Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

question about a rifle

Question:

    Hi, I am contemplating bying my first rifle.  After looking at many rifles, in various price ranges, I have begun to seriously look at the British Enfield rifle.  I am attracted to the enfield because i like the way it looks and handles.  I have not yet fired one, and was wondering if I should get a .303 or a .308?  Does anyone have any knowledge or experience they would be willing to share?  I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance, Pat Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I dont have too much knowledge in this, but the first question that popped in my head is what will you be hunting???? I bought a SHR 970 http://www.sigarms.com/products/sanswiss-shr970.asp and so far I love it

>     Hi, I am contemplating bying my first rifle.  After looking at many > rifles, in various price ranges, I have begun to seriously look at the > British Enfield rifle.  I am attracted to the enfield because i like the way > it looks and handles.  I have not yet fired one, and was wondering if I > should get a .303 or a .308?  Does anyone have any knowledge or experience > they would be willing to share?  I would greatly appreciate it. > Thanks in advance, > Pat > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>    Hi, I am contemplating bying my first rifle.  After looking at many >rifles, in various price ranges, I have begun to seriously look at the >British Enfield rifle.  I am attracted to the enfield because i like the way >it looks and handles.  I have not yet fired one, and was wondering if I >should get a .303 or a .308?  Does anyone have any knowledge or experience >they would be willing to share?  I would greatly appreciate it.

I hunted with a .303 Lee Enfield Mark III* for many years.  It’s still a serviceable deer rifle as long  as you get it checked out by a professional ’smith before firing it.  If the little locking guide on the rear of the bolt is chipped or broken, for instance, they can discharge unexpectedly.  There are other unobvious potential problems, and I really do recommend expert examination.  Most of them are over 50 years old, after all. But if you get a good one that’s been well cared for I see no reason why you shouldn’t be able to shoot it for at least another 50 years. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Pat, If you have your heart set on the Enfield, go for it.  Just get the .308, the ammunition is more readily available than .303. — http://www.herefishyfishy.com The Official Website of the ROFBMP Northwoods Classic http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Pat, The single most important consideration is what do you want to use it for? One of the great things about having so many different kinds of rifles in so many calibers is you can pick the one that matches your particular needs the closest. No one but you can determine the best fit. There are many that can help guide you to your best choice, but only knowing some key info about your intended use. For instance, is this strictly for fun, target practice, hunting and if so what kinds of game at what ranges in what kind of habitat, or for more serious competition shooting or self defense? The more detail you give, the better the answers back to you will be. Good luck! Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Goatweed or twigs, affect bullet???

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello > I shot at a deer last week and missed. It was standing in some tall goatweed > and I wanted to know if that would affect the bullet? I was shooting a 308, 150 > gr. soft point Remington core-lokt. I was told that it should just bust through > it, but wanted to hear some other opinions. The rifle is sighted in as I took a > hog the day before. It was in an open field. > I ask about the goatweed because when I was around 13 years old, ten years ago. > I shot at a doe a few times with a 243. I finally hit her with the last shot, > In three places. For some reason the bullets were breaking up before they got > to her. She was standing in tall grass, but it wasn’t really thick. Was it the > grass breaking the bullets apart or something else? I don’t remember what ammo > I was using back then. Maybe 100 gr. remington soft point core-lokt. As we have > an old box of it. > Any advice would be appreciated. > Thanks > Eric Majeski

  Eric,   As a firearms instructor for many years I can assure you that ANYTHING that a bullet hits in its path WILL affect the point of impact, even a blade of grass. It my not miss the target but it will have a different POI.                       CUTTER Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> Hello > I shot at a deer last week and missed. It was standing in some tall goatweed > and I wanted to know if that would affect the bullet? I was shooting a 308, 150 > gr. soft point Remington core-lokt. I was told that it should just bust through > it, but wanted to hear some other opinions.

Hi Anything that gets in the way of a bullet in flight will affect it including grass. Anyone who tells you that a bullet will just plow right on thru must be thinking of cannon fire. It doesn’t take much to upset a bullet prior to hitting the desired target. Some shooters forget that when shooting in heavy brush and fail to see the bbl is in line with brush while their scope is above it and they can’t figure out why they are missing easy shots. I’ve had it happen as close as 25 yards while shooting a .30 cal with 180gr bullets. Been hunting for over 50 years and a high power competitor for 40. Ol Shy & Bashful  The rifle is sighted in as I took a – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hog the day before. It was in an open field. > I ask about the goatweed because when I was around 13 years old, ten years ago. > I shot at a doe a few times with a 243. I finally hit her with the last shot, > In three places. For some reason the bullets were breaking up before they got > to her. She was standing in tall grass, but it wasn’t really thick. Was it the > grass breaking the bullets apart or something else? I don’t remember what ammo > I was using back then. Maybe 100 gr. remington soft point core-lokt. As we have > an old box of it. > Any advice would be appreciated. > Thanks > Eric Majeski > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

In my 30+ years of hunting experience, I have found that game standing just the other side of the brush can usually be hit. However if the brush is several feet toward you from the game, don’t even take the shot. David Heinsohn Texas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello Eric,   Hate to bust a bobble: there is no such thing as a bush bucking > bullet!!!   Even the .50 Browning (700 gr. bullet) at about 2800 fps will be > deflected by some very small brush and twig.  I have seen them turn completely > sideways after hitting some brush.  And, they didn’t fly very true after that, so > hitting behind the brush is very unlikely.  Have to find a hole in the brush to > shot through.  The .243 shots flat enough to shot through a hole.  Good hunting, > Joe > I shot at a deer last week and missed. It was standing in some tall goatweed > and I wanted to know if that would affect the bullet? I was shooting a 308, 150 > gr. soft point Remington core-lokt. I was told that it should just bust through > it, but wanted to hear some other opinions. The rifle is sighted in as I took a > hog the day before. It was in an open field. > I ask about the goatweed because when I was around 13 years old, ten years ago. > I shot at a doe a few times with a 243. I finally hit her with the last shot, > In three places. For some reason the bullets were breaking up before they got > to her. She was standing in tall grass, but it wasn’t really thick. Was it the > grass breaking the bullets apart or something else? I don’t remember what ammo > I was using back then. Maybe 100 gr. remington soft point core-lokt. As we have > an old box of it. > Any advice would be appreciated. > Thanks > Eric Majeski > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Hello Eric,   Hate to bust a bobble: there is no such thing as a bush bucking bullet!!!   Even the .50 Browning (700 gr. bullet) at about 2800 fps will be deflected by some very small brush and twig.  I have seen them turn completely sideways after hitting some brush.  And, they didn’t fly very true after that, so hitting behind the brush is very unlikely.  Have to find a hole in the brush to shot through.  The .243 shots flat enough to shot through a hole.  Good hunting, Joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I shot at a deer last week and missed. It was standing in some tall goatweed > and I wanted to know if that would affect the bullet? I was shooting a 308, 150 > gr. soft point Remington core-lokt. I was told that it should just bust through > it, but wanted to hear some other opinions. The rifle is sighted in as I took a > hog the day before. It was in an open field. > I ask about the goatweed because when I was around 13 years old, ten years ago. > I shot at a doe a few times with a 243. I finally hit her with the last shot, > In three places. For some reason the bullets were breaking up before they got > to her. She was standing in tall grass, but it wasn’t really thick. Was it the > grass breaking the bullets apart or something else? I don’t remember what ammo > I was using back then. Maybe 100 gr. remington soft point core-lokt. As we have > an old box of it. > Any advice would be appreciated. > Thanks > Eric Majeski > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Hello I shot at a deer last week and missed. It was standing in some tall goatweed and I wanted to know if that would affect the bullet? I was shooting a 308, 150 gr. soft point Remington core-lokt. I was told that it should just bust through it, but wanted to hear some other opinions. The rifle is sighted in as I took a hog the day before. It was in an open field. I ask about the goatweed because when I was around 13 years old, ten years ago. I shot at a doe a few times with a 243. I finally hit her with the last shot, In three places. For some reason the bullets were breaking up before they got to her. She was standing in tall grass, but it wasn’t really thick. Was it the grass breaking the bullets apart or something else? I don’t remember what ammo I was using back then. Maybe 100 gr. remington soft point core-lokt. As we have an old box of it. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Eric Majeski Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

shooting stick or next best thing

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >We just came from the range, to recheck the accuracy of our rifles. I >recently won a bench vise and I was able to get the rigle hitting 1.5 inch >circle at 100 yrds- Hell I will take that to the bank. The however comes >now- that was using a bench vise. From two car accidents I have had 2 broken >vertebrae in my neck, Dislocated my right shoulder 5 times, they have cut on >my knees 5 times replace both ankles a total of 11 surgeries below my waist >and they want to cut on my neck, back, replace both knees and left hip- what >the heck does this have to do with this? well when I shoot off the bench or >circle at 100 yards. a friend said well that is ok it is a riflwe not a >hammer- I don’t believe that is acceptable. What do I do? Get shooting >sticks? any other suggestions Comeon EE or JIM Lively. thanks Chris >I forgot to say >My right shoulder has been dislocated 5 times and I have broken 4 of my >finger on my right hand twice now- I don’t want any pity( And I know I ain’t >getting it) I just want to be able to have somewhat better shooting >the rifle I shot is a remingtom 700 adl synthetic stock. I have and will >continue to practice, I also have nerve damage from diabetes. Sorry some >might say give up , but I aint gonna do it.I will be sittting in a blind or >tree stand- 3′x4 platform stand with a rail. keep up with the suggestion >thanks

 Dang. You can shoot the deer 10 times and it will still be healthier than you are!! For a cheap shooting stick, buy a set of shock corded tent poles. Remove however many sections that you don’t need to get the length you need. Use a strong rubber band to connect the two sticks. They can be folder to about 24" so they’re easy to carry. Get the thickest poles available for max stiffness. Dick Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

<clipped> inch > circle at 100 yards. a friend said well that is ok it is a riflwe not a > hammer- I don’t believe that is acceptable. What do I do? Get shooting > sticks? any other suggestions Comeon EE or JIM Lively. thanks Chris

  Chris, if you plan on using a tree stand most of the time, you can use the rail to steady your gun. Stoney Point makes the Safari Sticks for shooting standing up. They are 72" long, and would help to remove a lot of wobble. If you can sit, the long Harris bipod works great. I have one for chuck hunting, and love it. I think the one designed for prone use is useless for us old guys, as we can’t get down there any more (or get back up).   Also, a tactic I use a lot when still hunting, is to take a few steps, then stop beside a tree. That way, If a shot presents itself, there’s a rest right beside you. I believe that everyone should use a rest when possible. We owe it to the animal to place our shots as accurately as possible. Shoot offhand at paper, but use the rest for game. Hope this helps you out some. Bob Experience is something you don’t get until just after you need it. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

We just came from the range, to recheck the accuracy of our rifles. I recently won a bench vise and I was able to get the rigle hitting 1.5 inch circle at 100 yrds- Hell I will take that to the bank. The however comes now- that was using a bench vise. From two car accidents I have had 2 broken vertebrae in my neck, Dislocated my right shoulder 5 times, they have cut on my knees 5 times replace both ankles a total of 11 surgeries below my waist and they want to cut on my neck, back, replace both knees and left hip- what the heck does this have to do with this? well when I shoot off the bench or circle at 100 yards. a friend said well that is ok it is a riflwe not a hammer- I don’t believe that is acceptable. What do I do? Get shooting sticks? any other suggestions Comeon EE or JIM Lively. thanks Chris I forgot to say My right shoulder has been dislocated 5 times and I have broken 4 of my finger on my right hand twice now- I don’t want any pity( And I know I ain’t getting it) I just want to be able to have somewhat better shooting the rifle I shot is a remingtom 700 adl synthetic stock. I have and will continue to practice, I also have nerve damage from diabetes. Sorry some might say give up , but I aint gonna do it.I will be sittting in a blind or tree stand- 3′x4 platform stand with a rail. keep up with the suggestion thanks Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Torso Size – Elk & Deer ?

Question:

> AAR, I have measured that my duplex scope reticle subtends 44" from wide > like to use this knowledge to implement a crude rangefinding mechanism. > Unfortunately, I do not know the measured sizes of these animals.

I have used the method you describe for a long time, with good success. For my measurements, I was fortunate in being able to actually measure several full-body taxidermist mounted animals. For Colorado/Wyoming antelope, I use measurement of 14 inches. For Colorado mule deer, it’s 16-17 inches for a doe, and 17-18 inches for a buck. For Colorado  _COW_  elk, I use 24 inches.  I don’t have a good measurement for bull elk, as I seldom hunt bulls.  However, I would be comfortable with a measurement of about 26-28 inches for bulls.  A big bull is quite a bit bigger than a spike or raghorn.                                        Lee Carkenord   Denver, CO Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Joe – I wouldn’t worry about trying to use a "range-finder" scope – I had one many, many years ago and as I recall, never used it.  And, being raised in Wyoming and now living in Idaho, I can’t tell you how many deer and elk I have shot – but was skunked the last two years.  Your best bet – depending on your rifle and load, sight it in so that you are on at 200 yards – and you’ll be within 1 1/2" of the point of aim out to 250 or 275.  My rule – if I can’t get Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> All – > I am going on my first big game hunt in almost a quarter century. I’ll be > going after both Bull Elk and Buck Deer in the NW corner of CO. > AAR, I have measured that my duplex scope reticle subtends 44" from wide > like to use this knowledge to implement a crude rangefinding mechanism. > Unfortunately, I do not know the measured sizes of these animals. > Is there a web site somewhere that has this information?

Figure a buck deer at about 16-18 inch torso, A bull elk, probably 2/3 more, maybe double.  If you are hunting public land in the Maybel/Hayden corridor then you’ll have your hands full, there are a LOT of hunters who hunt there.  You’ll be more worried about just finding a suitable animal to shoot than what range the animal is at. If you have a guided and/or private land hunt then you’ll see abundant deer and elk.  Ranging them should not be a problem as you’re likely to get within 200 yards, even perhaps under 50 yards. Enjoy your hunt but realistically, you’ve got a lot more to worry about then what you list above.  The most successful elk hunters have hunted the same terrain for over 10 years; or they hunt with somebody who has equivalent knowledge and who isn’t hunting (guide). Good luck though, the weather has been very warm lately.  A friend just came back from Steamboat and commented that every pickup seemed to have a elk in the bed.  Acording to the DOW, we’re about 80,000 head above where they think Colorado should be.  I think that’s a bit high but then I don’t have to pay depradation claims filed by farmers (at least not directly).o Good luck! Rick Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

All – I am going on my first big game hunt in almost a quarter century. I’ll be going after both Bull Elk and Buck Deer in the NW corner of CO. AAR, I have measured that my duplex scope reticle subtends 44" from wide like to use this knowledge to implement a crude rangefinding mechanism. Unfortunately, I do not know the measured sizes of these animals. Is there a web site somewhere that has this information? Thanx, Joe Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response: