Buffalo's pigeons
Question:
Did anyone catch this weekend’s AP news story about the how Buffalo, NY is handling it’s pigeon problem? They’re shooting them with .22’s. Of course the animal rights people are on the fight about it. My point, though, is that the city contends that there is no danger to the citizens because "the shooters don’t miss." I assume that you will see them on the US Olympic shooting team. I can ‘t believe that city officials can be so naive about .22 ballistics. Take, for example, the highly technical physics law that "what goes up must come down." A bullet shot up will decelerate to zero, then accelerate as it falls to almost the same speed that it left the gun. Not dangerous? Yeah, right. Just this last week, I found a bullet imbedded straight down in a flat, hot-tar roof I was repairing. It appeared to be a .38 or 9mm, about 125 gr. It was imbedded deep enough to have easily gone deep into the skull of anyone it landed on. I doubt it would have been imbedded much deeper if it had been shot directly into the roof. A .22 won’t hit as hard as this one, of course, but it can do considerable damage. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
I can ‘t believe that city officials can > be so naive about .22 ballistics. Take, for example, the highly technical > physics law that "what goes up must come down." A bullet shot up will > decelerate to zero, then accelerate as it falls to almost the same speed > that it left the gun.
Cite, please???? NIC GUNS CAUSE CRIME THE SAME WAY PENS CAUSE BAD SPELLING!!!!! GUNS CAUSE CRIME THE SAME WAY TIGHT FITTING LEVIS CAUSE RAPE!!!!! Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
: Did anyone catch this weekend’s AP news story about the how Buffalo, NY is : handling it’s pigeon problem? They’re shooting them with .22’s. Of course : the animal rights people are on the fight about it. : My point, though, is that the city contends that there is no danger to the : citizens because "the shooters don’t miss." I assume that you will see them : on the US Olympic shooting team. I can ‘t believe that city officials can : be so naive about .22 ballistics. Take, for example, the highly technical : physics law that "what goes up must come down." A bullet shot up will : decelerate to zero, then accelerate as it falls to almost the same speed : that it left the gun. Not dangerous? Yeah, right. Just this last week, I : found a bullet imbedded straight down in a flat, hot-tar roof I was : repairing. It appeared to be a .38 or 9mm, about 125 gr. It was imbedded : deep enough to have easily gone deep into the skull of anyone it landed on. : I doubt it would have been imbedded much deeper if it had been shot directly : into the roof. A .22 won’t hit as hard as this one, of course, but it can : do considerable damage. Are you sure they’re not shooting them with .22 birdshot? samg Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
: I can ‘t believe that city officials can : > be so naive about .22 ballistics. Take, for example, the highly technical : > physics law that "what goes up must come down." A bullet shot up will : > decelerate to zero, then accelerate as it falls to almost the same speed : > that it left the gun. : Cite, please???? He can’t. This isn’t true. It would be true in a vacuum. If you want a reference, take a look in the NRA Firearms Facts Book. Army experiments with a .30 caliber rifle fired straight up showed that if the bullets remain stable, they come back down at around 300fps, if they tumble, they fall with less speed. Hardly the 3000 fps or so they left the muzzle at. I still wouldn’t want to have one drop on my head at 300fps (150gr). -Scot — Scot E. Heath, P.E. "Nothing beats turning clay to dust." Fort Collins, CO Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
> Take, for example, the highly technical > physics law that "what goes up must come down." A bullet shot up will > decelerate to zero, then accelerate as it falls to almost the same speed > that it left the gun.
This is not true. Any object will accelereate until it reaches terminal velocity. The terminal velocity for each object is different, varying by the density and surface area (aerodynamics) of the object. Once an object reaches it’s terminal velocity, it stops accelerating and falls at that constant rate until it hits something. That is why a human dropped from an airplane falls at a different rate depending on the use of a parachute or (when free falling) the shape their body assumes. For a rifle bullet, the terminal velocity is MUCH less than it’s muzzel velocity. Which is not to say it is not dangerous, btw. — + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Chris Barnes AOL IM: cnbarnes Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
Obviously stupid about gun safety. Anyone in Buffalo want to catch some of those pigeons. Then contact a local Spaniel Club. They would likely provide excellent homes for them away from their current establishments. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
> My point, though, is that the city contends that there is no danger to the > citizens because "the shooters don’t miss." I assume that you will see them > on the US Olympic shooting team.
Sounds pretty lame. I guess if they used short hollowpoints and were sure of the =backstop=, it =might= be ok. Too bad they don’t know about air guns. A $300 scoped .177 cal. airgungun would last them many years and the ammo is almost free. With that, they wouldn’t need to worry about a backstop in some cases. — Charlie Dilks Newark, DE USA Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
Personally, I think I’d rather the birds be shot and possibly on someone’s plate instead of what they do here in Champaign, IL which is poison everything. When our bird populations get out of control down by the cow farms, our taxes go towards poisoning the birds (mostly starlings, I think). I’ve had to finish off three birds myself in the past week alone. The poison eventually paralyzes them but they struggle on the ground for several hours so I figured I was doing them a favor. I just hope our poisons don’t have any adverse effects on the rest of our animal community. Jason Boblick U of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign "It ought to be easy ought to be simple enough Man meets woman and they fall in love But the house is haunted and the ride gets rough And you’ve got to learn to live with what you can’t rise above…" -Bruce Springsteen Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
I suspect they are using "rat shot" or CB caps that approximately equal a pellet gun. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
The terminal velocity for each object is different, varying by > the density and surface area (aerodynamics) of the object.
Density has nothing to do with the speed of the falling object. Density is equal to the mass of the object divided by its volume, both scalar quantities which do not affect acceleration due to gravity. In a vacuum, an object propelled upward will slow on the way up until the vertical component of its trajectory approaches and then reaches 0. It will then accelerate to the original velocity to which it was propelled. The horizontal component of its trajectory will remain constant in speed. Both components can be quantified by vector analysis. Now, in any conditions other than a vacuum (ie. atmosphere), the bullet will be propelled upward, constantly slowing until it’s velociy reaches 0. It will then accelerate to its terminal velocity, which will be far short of its original velocity. For this explanation, I will cite Galileo’s experiments. Objects of differing mass will accelerate under the inlfuence of gravity at the same rates, 32 ft/sec/sec. Bri Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
> Did anyone catch this weekend’s AP news story about the how Buffalo, NY is > handling it’s pigeon problem? They’re shooting them with .22’s.
Here is a partial quote of the article. They definitely aren’t using birdshot. "Frank Poincelot, the city’s head pest-control officer, told the Buffalo News that pest-control officers sometimes go through 50 or 60 rounds of ammunition in one day. Shooters often are called to clear away birds perched on roof peaks of single and two-family houses. Officials insist the shooters don’t miss. Although a .22 caliber bullet can travel a mile or more and potentially through a bird, animal control officials say people aren’t in danger." Ok, I errored. A bullet doesn’t drop as fast as it goes up, but if you had seen the bullet I took out of the roof, you would agree that you would prefer to be elsewhere when it hit. And if these idiots in Buffalo think they aren’t endangering anyone, they need a little "advise". I wonder why they don’t mention where the bullets are landing Dick Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
: The terminal velocity for each object is different, varying by : > the density and surface area (aerodynamics) of the object. : Density has nothing to do with the speed of the falling object. Density This is not exactly correct. Terminal velocity is the point at which the force being exerted on the object due to gravity is equal to the force being exerted upward on the object by the air being displaced. Frontal area and shape both play a role in determining the force and objects of differing density typically have different frontal area. For instance, a sphere of lead weighing 1 pound and an inflated baloon weighing one pound both have the same mass but hugely different densities and terminal velocities. -Scot — Scot E. Heath, P.E. "Nothing beats turning clay to dust." Fort Collins, CO Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
> The terminal velocity for each object is different, varying by > the density and surface area (aerodynamics) of the object. > Density has nothing to do with the speed of the falling object. Density > is equal to the mass of the object divided by its volume, both scalar > quantities which do not affect acceleration due to gravity. In a > vacuum,
In a vacuum, you’re right. But we’re not talking about a vacuum. When not in a vacuum, the density affects the amount of resistance an object has to air pressure pushing back up against it. > Now, in any conditions other than a vacuum (ie. atmosphere), the bullet > will be propelled upward, constantly slowing until it’s velociy reaches > 0. It will then accelerate to its terminal velocity, which will be far > short of its original velocity. For this explanation, I will cite > Galileo’s experiments. Objects of differing mass will accelerate under > the inlfuence of gravity at the same rates, 32 ft/sec/sec.
This is correct. What is neglected is where the equalibrium between the gravity and resistance the air has is reached. This affects how many of those squared seconds are used before the acceleration is down to zero. This is where density (as well as the objects shape) come into play. That’s why a skydiver in the "bullet" position has a much faster terminal velocity than one who is spread out. — + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Chris Barnes AOL IM: cnbarnes Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
I agree Physics is Physics. Don’t let anyone tell you any different Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
There is a load that will really work for pigeons and is quite safe when falling back to earth, they are the "gallery" shorts, their bullets are made from pure tin (very light) will not go through a pigeon, if a miss does occur, they fall back without much energy, if the bullet hits any solid object it turns to dust, they are great for pigeon control even inside steal buildings, when firing at them in the structural steel, as there is no danger of penetrating the roof or of any bounce backs Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
My guess is 10,000,000 times more people will die from pigeon-borne diseases than from errent bullets fired at pigeons. When the authority said the marksmen never miss, it’s true, I never miss either. You’re just afraid of guns, don’t make me laugh. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
> My guess is 10,000,000 times more people will die from pigeon-borne > diseases than from errent bullets fired at pigeons. When the authority > said the marksmen never miss, it’s true, I never miss either. > You’re just afraid of guns, don’t make me laugh.
My congratulations in advance for winning the gold in Sydney. Do you plan to use 3" or 3 1/2" in your 12 ga. in the small bore competition? Don’t want you to miss, do we? Dick Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
Response:
>Did anyone catch this weekend’s AP news story about the how Buffalo, NY is >handling it’s pigeon problem? They’re shooting them with .22’s. Of course >the animal rights people are on the fight about it.
(snip) Is there some good reason they’re not using hawks/falcons against them? ARs would have no problem (that they could scream about, anyway) if one wild animal were doing what came naturally with another wild animal. I’ve heard they’ve been used with some success in some towns. A few releases of rehabbed injured or properly raised orphans and some nice nesting sites could make a big difference in a couple of years. Failing live in raptors, maybe the could give some falconers some good hunting for a while? —– rbc: vixen (somewhat harmless) 0-0: The artist formerly known as something else. I only answer my email every few months, on average. Patience helps. http://www.visi.com/~cyli Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/
