About Premium Hunting Bullits
Question:
Ballistic Tip bullets will be explosive if they hit the target at high velocity. They make great long range bullets, but if you anticipate any close range shooting, ballistic tips are not the best choice for big game.
Response:
[snip] >Nosler Ballistic: Insmaller calibers it is explosive expansion for >varmints. In about .270 and up it is controlled expansion. very >stramlined profile for long range velocity.
Your comments might be mis-interpreted. The varmint bullets are not simplt those in the smaller *calibres*, but they are the lighter weights of bullet in *each* calibre. (Nosler produce (or produced) a leaflet explaining what each bullet in each calibre is for: they should be available in guun shops.) For example, the 6mm 70gn bullet is a pure lead core for varmint use, but the 6mm 95gn is a lead-antimony alloy for use on big game (eg antelope, deer). For this use, the 6mm 95gn is ideal. –Jonathan Jonathan Spencer — forensic firearms examiner Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 0686
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >[snip] >Nosler Ballistic: Insmaller calibers it is explosive expansion for >varmints. In about .270 and up it is controlled expansion. very >stramlined profile for long range velocity. >Your comments might be mis-interpreted. The varmint bullets are not >simplt those in the smaller *calibres*, but they are the lighter weights >of bullet in *each* calibre. (Nosler produce (or produced) a leaflet >explaining what each bullet in each calibre is for: they should be >available in guun shops.)
The Nosler home page has a good explanation of which bullets they call varmint and the heavier big game bullets. You can view the info at www.nosler.com >For example, the 6mm 70gn bullet is a pure lead core for varmint use, >but the 6mm 95gn is a lead-antimony alloy for use on big game (eg >antelope, deer). For this use, the 6mm 95gn is ideal. >–Jonathan >Jonathan Spencer — forensic firearms examiner >Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR >tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 0686
Tim M/OR http://www.open.org/timmick
Response:
> >Nosler Ballistic: Insmaller calibers it is explosive expansion for >varmints. In about .270 and up it is controlled expansion. very >stramlined profile for long range velocity.
I have a kind of spit personality on this issue. Part of me wants to say to skip he premium bullets if you’re hunting deer at 200 yards or less with a .270 or .30-06. I haven’t had a deer yet that a plain old Federal .30-06 with a 150 grain spire point hasn’t expanded and penetrated completely on a broadside or quartering shot. That being said, I like the Nosler partition in 150 grain since it will still open up reliably at longer ranges, and the base will hold together at close up shots hitting heavy bone. Different cartridge, different but similar results. In a factory cartridge for the .35 Remington the old remington round nose core-lokt is deadly on deer out to 100 yards. Still, I shoot a lot in contenders, and for more reliable expansion at longer ranges I use a Hornady Single Shot Pistol 180 grain spire point, that has a thinner jacket and interlocked core at the base. madpoet
Response:
I have used sierra bullets on elk, moose, bear, and deer, the bullets always blew up inside the animals but they were always very dead very quickly. Last year I tried some premiun bullets that retained 95% bullet weight etc., etc., the result was a hole through a whitetail and a very long chase, thank god for tracking snow. The upshot of all this is I don’t think you need these bullets unless you are going after dangerous game with heavy skin, all the thin skinned north american game will be where you want them with the old reliable bullets. Don’t let the advertisements fool you results are what count. Foolhen.
Response:
>I am confused about the purpose amd merits of all the current premium >hunting bullits on the market.
The purpose is to secure market share. >I shoot a 7mm Weatherby Mag and have used >the 140gr BT Sierra bullit for years. The only problem is that the bullit >breaks up no matter what it hit (ie deer, antelope,etc).
How fast are you pushing it? Over 3,000fps? >I am considering >using one of the premium bullits but I really know very little about them. >Can some one help explain them to me?
Try and get how of the article "Some 30s and how they hit" which was in the 1995 edition of _Handloaders Digest_. Basically, most ‘normal’ bullets are fine at 2,700fps but fall apart at 3,100fps (30-06 vs 300WM) velocities. You need a tougher bullet (eg Failsafe etc) for the higher velocities. This is fast becoming a FAQ. :-) –Jonathan Jonathan Spencer — forensic firearms examiner Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 0686
Response:
I am confused about the purpose amd merits of all the current premium hunting bullits on the market. I shoot a 7mm Weatherby Mag and have used the 140gr BT Sierra bullit for years. The only problem is that the bullit breaks up no matter what it hit (ie deer, antelope,etc). I am considering using one of the premium bullits but I really know very little about them. Can some one help explain them to me?
Response:
>I am confused about the purpose amd merits of all the current premium >hunting bullits on the market. I shoot a 7mm Weatherby Mag and have used >the 140gr BT Sierra bullit for years. The only problem is that the bullit >breaks up no matter what it hit (ie deer, antelope,etc).
The problem is that you are shooting too small a bullet too fast. In my experience, Sierras are easily expanded, but larger 175 gr Sierras would probably do just fine for you. More mass going slower. Probably any soft point 175 gr bullet fired at 2,800 fps will do what you want. Don’t feel badly–some people are using the 7mm STW to shoot 140 gr bullets even faster than your Weatherby. This is really misguided in my opinion, since with a proper twist rate, all that powder could be used to maximize 7mm performance with 190 grain bullets. >I am considering >using one of the premium bullits but I really know very little about them. >Can some one help explain them to me?
Premium bullets have different designs, but all "aim" to provide reliable expansion and deep penetration. In addition, they tend to be sharply pointed to fly efficiently to preserve velocity, and so energy, for long shots. In general, even premium bullets will not overcome the problem of being "too small and too fast". The hunter must start out with a big enough bullet for the game he will hunt. The idea is for the bullet to be big enough that it can’t disintegrate and so, stop penetrating. Modern shooters have become fascinated with high velocity, and use smaller bullets to gain even more velocity. This is wrong for big game hunting, where the heaviest bullet that a cartridge will handle is likely to be the best performer on game. The hunter should match the velocity of the bullet to the task at hand. Your 140 gr Weatherby load is probably perfect for deer and antelope out at 400 yards because the bullet will have slowed enough to expand correctly. A bigger bullet going slower would be better for anything closer, and it turns out, is better for long shots too. This is because it is slower at impact and the greater mass carries energy better down range. If you’ve decided to shoot a large enough bullet, paying premium bullet prices is not necessary, since the standard Win Power Points, and Rem Core-lokts, or Sierra Pro-hunters will work fine. That said, using certain premium bullets will allow you to do some specific things (like shoot through a shoulder, or use a lighter bullet that retains its mass for less recoil). Some bullets won’t disintegrate even at high velocity impacts. Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and Swift A-Frames have lead cores that are bonded to their jackets. Barnes X and Win Fail Safes are made of tough copper that won’t come apart. Others like Nosler Partitions, are made to open easily for reliable long range expansion, but use a copper divider to retain about 60% of their mass for good penetration. The premium bullets have various disadvantages besides their high (and higher) prices. Some are not as accurate as others. The copper bullets are longer for their weight than comparable lead core bullets which can cause loading or stabilization problems. Barrel cleaning can be a PAIN with some. Some notes on premium bullets that I am currently using in my 280 IMP (7mm): 160 gr Nosler Partition (NP)-about 40 cents each, very accurate (0.7 moa), good velocity 3,000+ fps and barrel cleaning is okay. 175 gr NP- less accurate (1.5 moa), okay velocity 2,850 fps, ditto cost and cleaning. I used this bullet exclusively (the semi-spitzer) for 15 years in my 7mm Mag. 150 gr Barnes X-about 40 cents apiece, super accurate (0.4 moa), slower velocity (2,970, slower than 160 NP) and it’s a pain to clean the barrel. 150 gr Barnes XBT-about 42 cents apiece, not as accurate (perhaps too long for my barrel?) okay vel & ditto cleaning. 160 gr Swift A-Frame- cost $1 each, are beautiful, but a little slower and inaccurate in my rifle (2 moa) 175 gr Swift A-Frame-ditto only worse (2.5 moa) 160 gr Fail Safe-about 72 cents apiece, poor accuracy (2-3 moa) and less velocity (2,940) These observations are from a limited number of loads in one rifle and won’t hold true for all rifles, and I may discover better loads. For example, I’ve had much better accuracy with the Fail Safes and 175 NPs in my 7mm Mag. For my 280 IMP I’m trying to decide whether to use the 160 gr NP that I used successfully last season, or perhaps the 175 gr NP for more mass and less accuracy, or the 150 gr Barnes X which is super accurate, retains all its mass (but I’ve heard complaints of unreliable expansion?) and may have less retained energy at long range. All this mind-bending is actually a wasted effort since there is no perfect bullet for all situations and as J. Spencer recently pointed out, accuracy better than 2 moa is usually irrelevant in a hunting load. Using a big enough bullet will make up for most of the deficiencies of inferior construction or less sophisticated design. And save money. Get the CD-ROM "Tim Calvin’s Hunting the West" Call me to order with VISA/MC, 1-800-215-9045. Price: $59.95 plus $1.24 postage. CA residents must add $4.35 tax.
Response:
>I am confused about the purpose amd merits of all the current premium >hunting bullits on the market. I shoot a 7mm Weatherby Mag and have used >the 140gr BT Sierra bullit for years. The only problem is that the bullit >breaks up no matter what it hit (ie deer, antelope,etc). I am considering >using one of the premium bullits but I really know very little about them. >Can some one help explain them to me?
The question is do you efficiently kill the game you shoot with the loads you have been using? I have killed dozens of deer with my .270 and 130 gr BT Sierra’s and all but 2 that I can remember were one shot kills. Of the 2 that were shot twice, the first shot would have done the job, but both animals were running hard and the second shot just anchored them. To me it is a fine bullet. Most of the animals drop in their tracks and that is what I want. Unless you plan on going for bigger game than deer, you really do not need to go to premium bullets, ie Nosler Partition, Barnes X etc. I used to shoot 150 gr Core Loks and the Nosler Partition. The prblem was they are so tough, they do not expand well in deer size animals and leave a small wound channel. Consequently it was no uncommon for an animal shot clean through the chest to run quite a ways. That is why I switched to Seirra’s BT. This is just my opinion. You will have to formulate your own. Milt. Smile you could be working!!!!
Response:
> I am confused about the purpose amd merits of all the current premium > hunting bullits on the market. I shoot a 7mm Weatherby Mag and have used > the 140gr BT Sierra bullit for years. The only problem is that the bullit > breaks up no matter what it hit (ie deer, antelope,etc). I am considering > using one of the premium bullits but I really know very little about them. > Can some one help explain them to me?
What type of hunting? Varmit? Dear? Elk? Factory ammo or handload components? A few factory offerings described below. Nosler Ballistic: Insmaller calibers it is explosive expansion for varmints. In about .270 and up it is controlled expansion. very stramlined profile for long range velocity. Nosler Partition: Easy expanding front half, brass separator for strenght about half way down, lower half remains intact for penetration. The top half (mushroom) can get stripped off going through a shoulder, but the rear base will keep on going. Typically retain on average 60-80% of weight. Average profile. Trophy Bonded Bear Claw: Thick jacket, slow expansion, no case separation. Near complete weight retention. Almost a roundnose profile. (Above three are available in Federal’s Premium line of ammo). Winchester Supreme uses a very tough controlled expansion bullet. Hanloading opens whole wide range of selection: Speer has several grades of bullets for every need from varmint to Cape Buffalo. Nosler has Varmint Ballistic, big game Ballistic (also great for .30 caliber semi-autos), and the tough Partition. Winchester Supreme bullets are also available.
Response:
> I am confused about the purpose amd merits of all the current premium > hunting bullits on the market. I shoot a 7mm Weatherby Mag and have used > the 140gr BT Sierra bullit for years. The only problem is that the bullit > breaks up no matter what it hit (ie deer, antelope,etc). I am considering > using one of the premium bullits but I really know very little about them. > Can some one help explain them to me?
You hit the purpose for the premium hunting bullets squarely on the head. A bullet that breaks up and does not full penetrate the animal increases the chance of a cripple or at least an escape. If you have blood coming out both sides, you’re more likely to find your game if it isn’t dead in it’s tracks. A second side affect is that often the premium bullets, because they don’t blow up, don’t destroy as much meat. I like the Nosler partition and Barnes X bullet. The partition is, in my opinion, particularly suited to situations where you want the expansion of a regular hunting bullet but you want more penetration. I’d pick them for deer, antelope, and black bear … they’ll expand on lung shots like an "mortal" bullet, but hang together enough to penetrate on close shots where high velocity will cause regular bullets to come apart. The Barnes X creates a smaller diameter but much deeper wound channel. I like this on elk where you might have to penetrate a couple feet, depending on the angle, to reach vital organs. The key points, for me are: 1) premium bullets don’t break up at high velocity, 2) premium bullets don’t break up on large bones, 3) premium bullets USUALLY don’t destroy as much edible meat, and 4) premium bullets tend to penetrate better so I can make a killing shot at less than optimal angles. If you’re discombobulating (very scientific term, there 
) your bullets as you report, I’d suggest either a lot more bullet weight and cutting the velocity back, or a premium grade bullet, or both. In your 7 mag, a 160 grain partition is really hard to beat for all around hunting from antelope to elk and everything in between. Tom
Response:
> I am confused about the purpose amd merits of all the current premium > hunting bullits on the market. I shoot a 7mm Weatherby Mag and have used > the 140gr BT Sierra bullit for years. The only problem is that the bullit > breaks up no matter what it hit (ie deer, antelope,etc). I am considering > using one of the premium bullits but I really know very little about them. > Can some one help explain them to me?
I have had similar experience with the Federal Premium Ammunition for .308. This cartridge used a 165 gr Sierra boattail bullet that had great exterior ballistics and very poor terminal ballistics. They tended to "shuck their jackets" at the slightest provocation inside a small Texas white tail. I had two of them shuck on contacting ribs on entry, and two more that contacted shoulder bone. I prefer neck shots under 200 yards, and the dang things wouldn’t even reliably do a through and through on the spine — they just disintegrated. In all honesty, I always got good one shot kills with them, but it was due to bullet placement, not terminal ballistics. I want a dependable through and through with a lot of expansion in case I get a lung shot. I now use handloaded Nosler ballistic tips in either 165 or 180 grain, they are reliable performers — sub 1 moa groups and they continue in a relentless straight line through a white tail. I have never failed to get a through an through with them. Don Goldston
