Fail Safe ammo

Question:

There is no reason to believe that Fail Safe bullets are much better / worse than any other Nosler bullet. There is little basis to call expansion "lousy" by just shooting into water- – – that’s the reason for shooting into ballistic gelatin and meat. > I also did an expansion/weight retention test with this ammo using 1 gallon >water jugs. The load was a factory Winchester load in 30/06. Weight retention >was ok, the 180 grain bullet weighed 148 grains after. Expansion was >terrible. >It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded. My buddy did this same test but >used >a 7mmm instead with the same exact results. I would not reccomend them to >anyone. >   Jim

Randy Wakeman Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>   I also did an expansion/weight retention test with this ammo using 1 gallon > water jugs. The load was a factory Winchester load in 30/06. Weight retention > was ok, the 180 grain bullet weighed 148 grains after. Expansion was terrible. > It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded. My buddy did this same test but used > a 7mmm instead with the same exact results. I would not reccomend them to > anyone.

On large, thick skinned game they are designed for penetration rather than expansion.  If you need to break bone on something such as a grizzly/brown bear I can’t think of anything better. akpls Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> There is little basis to call expansion "lousy" by just shooting into water- – > – that’s the reason for shooting into ballistic gelatin and meat.

Sitting on to of my monitor is a 7mm mag slug that I recoverd from under the throat skin of a whitetail I shot in a right-facing quartering-away shot. The fail safe went through nearly all the right-side ribs before stopping under the skin under the chin. It had mushroomed perfectly with 90 degree talon-like petals, all intact. Most of these bullets, however, go all the way through the deer, blacktails included. This slug has been placed back in the cartridge that fired it, just for amusement. The expansion was perfect. The box does say for light thin-skinned game, deer fit this description and I have no reason not to use them. Sorry to hear all the dis-satisfaction with them, but I will continue to use them exclusively, they function as advertised. — http://Sprite.viptx.net/~moomesa/index.html Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> in water, better yet, get some ballistic gelatin, then make

Does anyone have instructions for making Ballistic Gelatin? Or barring that, where is it sold? d.t. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->   I also did an expansion/weight retention test with this ammo using 1 > gallon > water jugs. The load was a factory Winchester load in 30/06. Weight > retention > was ok, the 180 grain bullet weighed 148 grains after. Expansion was > terrible. > It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded. My buddy did this same test but > used > a 7mmm instead with the same exact results. I would not reccomend them to > anyone. > On large, thick skinned game they are designed for penetration rather than > expansion.  If you need to break bone on something such as a grizzly/brown > bear I can’t think of anything better. > akpls

Use a slower heavier calibre with a conventional bullet and it will expand as well as penetrate. Dan Hockly > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>   I also did an expansion/weight retention test with this ammo using 1 gallon > water jugs. The load was a factory Winchester load in 30/06. Weight retention > was ok, the 180 grain bullet weighed 148 grains after. Expansion was terrible. > It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded. My buddy did this same test but used > a 7mmm instead with the same exact results. I would not reccomend them to > anyone.

But the question is, how is the bullet going to react on living tissue?  I’m sure that the people that have tested these bullets used something a little more scientific than milk jugs filled with water.  Try testing these bullets on something a little denser than water.  Use newspaper that’s been soaked in water, better yet, get some ballistic gelatin, then make a definitive statement that expansion was terrible. Fail Safe bullets are "controlled expansion" bullets, they were not designed to open fully on initial impact. — http://www.herefishyfishy.com The Official Website of the ROFBMP Northwoods Classic http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

There is no reason to believe that Fail Safe bullets are much better / worse than any other Nosler bullet. There is little basis to call expansion "lousy" by just shooting into water- – – that’s the reason for shooting into ballistic gelatin and meat.  Hey,,,  I got the water idea from a few different magazines, so it cannot be all that bad. I do understand that shooting live animals might bring different results though. I tested 8 different factory 06 loads last summer, and the Fail Safe expanded by far the worst. Weight retention was good though. The Fail Safe bullet is alot different from the Nosler Partition.I guess i do not know where you get the idea that they are the same. Maybe you are confusing the Federal Premium Nosler Partition load and the Winchester Supreme Partition Gold loads? Here is what i got for results: 1. Winchester Fail Safe 180gr. End weight was 148 grains,it lost 18%. Almost no expansion. By far the worst of the bunch. 2. Winchester Power Point Plus 150gr. End weight was 99 grains, it lost 33%. Good expansion. 3. Remington Core Lokt 180gr. End weight was 131 grains, it lost 27%. Best expansion of the bunch. 4. Nosler Partition 180gr. End weight was 112 grains, it lost 38%. Very good expansion, front core seperated. 5. Winchester Partition Gold 150gr. End weight was 124 grains. it lost 17%. Excellent weight retention and expansion. Very small front core was recovered seperated. 6. Federal Premium Ballistic Tip 165gr. End weight was 66 grains, it lost 60%. Front core seperated completely, causing major weight retention loss. Good expansion otherwise. 7.Winchester Power Point Plus 180gr. End weight was 128 grains, it lost 29%. Very good expansion. 8.Hornady Light Magnum 165gr btsp. End weight was 111 grains, it lost 33%. Very good expansion. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>> Expansion was terrible.  It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded….. > I would not reccomend them to anyone. >On large, thick skinned game they are designed for penetration rather than >expansion.  If you need to break bone on something such as a grizzly/brown >bear I can’t think of anything better.

The hunter has to be wise enough to choose the correct ammunition when going hunting, and this is a good example why  According to the Winchester website, the 150-grain .30-06 FailSafe ammo gives: "Rapid, controlled expansion. Penetrates thin skin, light muscle and bone. For antelope, deer, black bear." The 180-grain FailSafe ammo gives: "Delayed, controlled expansion. Deep penetration through thick, tough skin, heavy muscle tissue and bone. For large, heavy game." Testing the wrong ammunition, or using poor testing techniques, is bound to give inaccurate results.  FailSafe ammo has been used world-wide with great results.  Like any ammo choice however, common sense is required. Jay T Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I recently purchased a new rifle in .300 Win Mag.  I bought a box of Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s opinions on this type of ammo (Fail Safe)?  Depending on the responses I get, I may choose to reload some of these, which leads to me to my next question.  Where can you buy just the Fail Safe bullets, or a similar design of bullet?  Thanks. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>I bought a box of >Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s >opinions on this type of ammo

They are basically Nosler Partition loads- (though coated) and are well proven, as with any previous Nosler P. round. Randy Wakeman Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Howdy! I have a 7mm Rem. Mag and I have used fail safe ammo for taking an elk and a black bear. In both cases the bullet went all the way through on a double lung shot.  I like the ammo; however, I have wondered if maybe some other kind of bullet may be just as good. I don’t reload ammo at this time. Hope this helps. Always, Gene Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I recently purchased a new rifle in .300 Win Mag.  I bought a box of > Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s > opinions on this type of ammo (Fail Safe)?  Depending on the responses I > get, I may choose to reload some of these, which leads to me to my next > question.  Where can you buy just the Fail Safe bullets, or a similar design > of > bullet?  Thanks.

I can’t comment on the Fail Safe in .300WM, but the performance of the 230 grain .338WM on moose has been excellent in my experience.  I also recently conducted a very non-scientific test of various bullet types, one of which was the Fail Safe.  The others were the Barnes X (225 grain) and Swift A-Frame (225 grain), all in .338 WM.  All were loaded with 73 grains of Reloader 22.  I filled a box with phone books, set it up at 100 yards, fired into it and then recovered the bullets.  The Fail Safe penetrated almost 18" and expanded exactly as advertised (4 peeled back petals).  Weight retention was almost 100%.  The A-Frame penetrated 12" and also expanded as advertised (mushroom-like).  Weight retention was about 93%.  The Barnes X penetrated about 10" and split into 2 pieces. Like I said, not a scientific test and certainly not definitive, but it satisfied my curiosity and told me enough to know that I’m sticking with the Fail Safe for large game (moose, bear, etc.) for now.  Not that the others wouldn’t do the job, but the Fail Safe has filled the freezer for me over the past several years.  I intend to try it again with some other bullet types when I get time. I bought my last batch of Fail Safes from Cabela’s, but they are also available from Midway and others.  Hope this helps. akpls Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I tried the fail safe ammo and was disappointed. While clearly well constructed, the ammo is extremely inaccurate in my particular rifle (ruger 77). Instead of 1 inch benchrest groups at 100 yards I was scattering shots about 10 inches apart. Thus my dissapointment is not in the ammo but in the fact that my gun doesn’t "like" the ammo. Dean Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

The FailSafe bullets are reported to me from a guide buddy of mine in Maine as "impressive" in terms of performance.  He’s a realist too.  No BS… Personally I’m not a believer that a whitetail or black bear needs a supreme bullet.  Speer Mag-Tips are my favorite but Hornady Interlock are also good.  If you’re going after the big stuff (Moose / Elk / Big bear) then the extra cash might be justified for the premium bullets.  Fail safe are supposed to be good (as my buddy reported) but they are said to be not so accurate in some rifles.  Also consider, Speer Grand Slam, Nosler Partition, Barnes X, Swift A Frame if you’re going to spend a bunch on the bullets.  The Fail Safe line are expensive. They’ve come down considerably in price since being introduced. Might be worth a try! http://www.midwayusa.com/online/productpage.exe/showproduct?SaleItemI… 2&KeyWord=fail+safe Good Luck… REM7600 > I recently purchased a new rifle in .300 Win Mag.  I bought a box of > Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s > opinions on this type of ammo (Fail Safe)?  Depending on the responses I > get, I may choose to reload some of these, which leads to me to my next > question.  Where can you buy just the Fail Safe bullets, or a similar

design Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I recently purchased a new rifle in .300 Win Mag.  I bought a box of > Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s > opinions on this type of ammo (Fail Safe)?  Depending on the responses I > get, I may choose to reload some of these, which leads to me to my next > question.  Where can you buy just the Fail Safe bullets, or a similar design > of > bullet?  Thanks.

I have shot the failsafe for three years now. They are handloaded 165 gr. for the .300 Win mag. They perform great, three one shot kills on three deer. Two in Utah and one in California. You can buy the bullets from CombinedTechnologies in a varity of Calibur weights. The one draw back is expense. They are very expensive compared to other equally lethal bullets, around thirty or so dollars per box of fifty. I’m not sure they are THAT good for the price, and don’t know if I will spend the money to reload another batch. I think I may stick to the Noslar Ballistic Tip in the 165 or 180 class. Great bullet for a lot less money per cartridge. Good luck with you’re new .300. Anthony Osuna Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I tried the fail safe ammo and was disappointed. While clearly well > constructed, the ammo is extremely inaccurate in my particular rifle (ruger > 77). Instead of 1 inch benchrest groups at 100 yards I was scattering shots > about 10 inches apart. > Thus my dissapointment is not in the ammo but in the fact that my gun > doesn’t "like" the ammo.

In my experience, it’s more difficult to find ammunition a Ruger 77 likes than the opposite. If you found one that will shoot 1" groups, consider yourself lucky. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> disappointed. While clearly well constructed, the ammo is extremely inaccurate > in my particular rifle (ruger 77). Instead of 1 inch benchrest groups at 100 > yards I was scattering shots about 10 inches apart. Thus my dissapointment is > not in the ammo but in the fact that my gun doesn’t "like" the ammo. > In my experience, it’s more difficult to find ammunition a Ruger 77 likes than > the opposite. If you found one that will shoot 1" groups, consider yourself > lucky.

I hunt exclusively with a Ruger M77S in 7mm Mag. with Fail Safes. Thg gun loves this ammo and has performed flawlessly with it. My first kill with the gun was 285 yards on my own land. The deer took a shoulder hit broadside and did not take another step. I have taken an entire box worth of game with this combo and had two misses (offhand shots-no rest) and zero bad kills (hit where I intended, neck or shoulder) in both white and blacktail and hogs. The gun is stock except for the Timney trigger I installed, I had a gunsmith mount the scope when I bought the gun. 5 years now and I have the same zero and 1" groups at 100 yards with no changes. The blacktail I just took was appx. a 200 yard shot from the prone. The two 8 pointers I took, and the doe my 8 yearold took this last weekend were all  at least100 yard shots, and the animals all dropped where they stood. The Fail Safes, while expensive, have let only one doe run more than thirty yards and one box lasted more than four seasons. I am now on my second box. The last bullet of the first box took my recent black tail (one stainless cartridge is on the ground somewhere in Terrell county, fell out of my belt). My 2 cents. — http://Sprite.viptx.net/~moomesa/index.html Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

  I also did an expansion/weight retention test with this ammo using 1 gallon water jugs. The load was a factory Winchester load in 30/06. Weight retention was ok, the 180 grain bullet weighed 148 grains after. Expansion was terrible. It penetrated 8 jugs and barely expanded. My buddy did this same test but used a 7mmm instead with the same exact results. I would not reccomend them to anyone.    Jim Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>>I bought a box of >Winchester Supreme Fail Safe cartridges to go with it.  What are people’s >opinions on this type of ammo >They are basically Nosler Partition loads- (though coated) and are well >proven, >as with any previous Nosler P. round.

They are not Nosler partition bullets.  They are a bullet built by Nosler utilizing one of Winchesters patents, hence the name "Combined Technology." The failsafe is a fully encased lead in the rear portion of the bullet (for weight retention) and a copper hollowpoint front.  I have found the bullet to be extremely accurate out of my 7mm STW Mod 70 (sum MOA) and lethal on deer and elk. Carl Degner carldives at aol dot com A fine is a tax for doing wrong.  A Tax is a fine for doing well. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

CA Quail?

Question:

Any decent places to look for quail in CA, never been quail hunting before so I don’t know where to look. Thanks In Advance Mike Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> Any decent places to look for quail in CA, never been quail hunting before > so I don’t know where to look. > Thanks In Advance

Almost anywhere in the Sierra Nevada range…especially around the Tahoe Basin.  You’ll find lots of C alifornia Quail and Mountain Quail.  My favorite spots are around the Susanville Area…noty because of the birds…more about the atmosphere and restaraunts. HH Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Mike,     Strongly you contact Dick Halderman, Regional Director with Quail Unlimited and get into a chapter near you or he can help you start one. There are a lot of benefits in being an active member (inside information, learning Stephen Ross Past So. CA State Chairman of Quail Unlimited Inc. Founding member of San Gabriel Valley Chapter > Any decent places to look for quail in CA, never been quail hunting before > so I don’t know where to look. > Thanks In Advance > Mike > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> Any decent places to look for quail in CA, never been quail hunting before > so I don’t know where to look. > Thanks In Advance > Mike > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

You can try this hunting forum, bunch of California hunters hang out here. http://www.jesseshuntingpage.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard//ikonboard.cgi ~Jesse Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Hello Mike, I saw your post on rec.hunting. We have a talk forum with many California hunters who can help you out at http://www.jesseshuntingpage.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard//ikonboard.cgi Regards, ~Jesse

 > Any decent places to look for quail in CA, never been quail hunting before  > so I don’t know where to look.  >  > Thanks In Advance  >  > Mike  >  > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:  >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ ~Jesse http://www.jesseshuntingpage.com New Talk Forums!! http://www.jesseshuntingpage.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard//ikonboard.cgi Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Thanks for all the replies to my question about hunting Quail in CA, that would be Southern CA since I forgot to specify in original post. Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Any decent places to look for quail in CA, never been quail hunting before > so I don’t know where to look. > Thanks In Advance > Mike > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ > where do you live?? > I hunt in the central valley and near Paso Robles, FT. Hunter Liggett > (closed!) > you can check out … > www.jesseshuntingpage.com > its a good resource > also the Cal DFG > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Thanks for the info, I live in Riverside and had thought about the Big Bear area although was unsure what parts were open to hunting.  What is the best contact to find out that info ? Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.hunting Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 03:25 > I guess it depends on where you live in CA? I lived in So. Cal for many years > and have hunted Quail from Lancaster to Big Bear. There are large numbers near > Silverwood Lake near Hesperia. Good areas throughout, you just need to find the > public lands or contact the landowners. Most areas are so wide open that if you > avoid houses, most people don’t bother you. Good Luck!! > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I guess it depends on where you live in CA? I lived in So. Cal for many years and have hunted Quail from Lancaster to Big Bear. There are large numbers near Silverwood Lake near Hesperia. Good areas throughout, you just need to find the public lands or contact the landowners. Most areas are so wide open that if you avoid houses, most people don’t bother you. Good Luck!! Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> Any decent places to look for quail in CA, never been quail hunting before > so I don’t know where to look. > Thanks In Advance > Mike > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

What part of Ca. I hunt in 2 different zones of Northern Ca. and see quail there when I hunt deer. — Valkyrie Never mess up an apology with an excuse. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> Any decent places to look for quail in CA, never been quail hunting before > so I don’t know where to look. > Thanks In Advance > Mike > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

where do you live?? I hunt in the central valley and near Paso Robles, FT. Hunter Liggett (closed!) you can check out … www.jesseshuntingpage.com its a good resource also the Cal DFG Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Question re. Remington 700 BDL

Question:

My son-in-law lives in the Bakersfield California area and is considering the following rifle:  Remington 700 BDL in stainless and synthetic stock, 22-250 calibre.  Main use is long shots at coyotes. Would appreciate any suggestions on where an honest and inexpensive place to purchase this.  Also, can you "mail-order" long guns from out of state, if so, any suggestions on who and where a good supplier is? Also, if anyone has input on other rifle makes or calibres to possibly consider, that would be appreciated as well.  Thanks in advance. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

That is a great gun and bullet for coyotes.  I would only change one thing. I would paint the gun.  Unless the stainless is a dark finish then it will be seen for a long ways by a coyote. Sorry I did not answer your questions. Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.hunting Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 4:39 PM > My son-in-law lives in the Bakersfield California area and is considering > the following rifle:  Remington 700 BDL in stainless and synthetic stock, > 22-250 calibre.  Main use is long shots at coyotes. > Would appreciate any suggestions on where an honest and inexpensive place to > purchase this.  Also, can you "mail-order" long guns from out of state, if > so, any suggestions on who and where a good supplier is? > Also, if anyone has input on other rifle makes or calibres to possibly > consider, that would be appreciated as well.  Thanks in advance. > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> My son-in-law lives in the Bakersfield California area and is considering > the following rifle:  Remington 700 BDL in stainless and synthetic stock, > 22-250 calibre.  Main use is long shots at coyotes. > Would appreciate any suggestions on where an honest and inexpensive place to > purchase this.  Also, can you "mail-order" long guns from out of state, if > so, any suggestions on who and where a good supplier is? > Also, if anyone has input on other rifle makes or calibres to possibly > consider, that would be appreciated as well.  Thanks in advance.

No, you can’t mail order long guns, at least not centerfires … muzzleloaders yes in general, but I’m not sure Californians can.  Gun shops here in Oregon can’t even sell to Californians.   Something about California law and a "drop test."  Sorry, I have no idea where you’d buy a gun in California. The 700 BDL stainless is a good gun and the .22-250 caliber is fine for coyotes.  It is "adequate."   There are other things I like better.   It’s an ok light weight setup, but I prefer the 700 VSSF in .220 Swift and the Sendero SF in .25-’06. I’ve had a couple .22-250s and a couple Swifts; there’s a significant gain when you step up to the Swift, certainly more than the .22-250 fans would like to believe. You might also consider the Winchester 70 "coyote" and Ruger 77 Varmint in .243 if you prefer 6mm cartridges … and the Remington 700 VLS in 6mm and .243. Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>The 700 BDL stainless is a good gun and the .22-250 caliber is fine for >coyotes.  It is "adequate."   There are other things I like better.   It’s an ok >light weight setup, but I prefer the 700 VSSF in .220 Swift and the Sendero SF >in .25-’06. >You might also consider the Winchester 70 "coyote" and Ruger 77 Varmint in .243 >if you prefer 6mm cartridges … and the Remington 700 VLS in 6mm and .243.

I’ll second Tom’s opinion here.  The 25-06 and the .243 are better coyote rounds than the 22-250.  And the bull-barreled Remingtons (Sendero SF and VLS) are better choices than the BDL, unless you’ll be doing a lot of walking.  I’ve got a Sendero SF in 25-06, and it shoots everything I feed it into MOA groups or better, and tuned handloads can hold 0.5 MOA out to 500 yards (that’s a 2.5" group at 500 yards). The 25-06 and .243 move a lot less in the wind, particularly with match bullets.  In addition, they pack a lot more punch on the receiving end. Michael Courtney Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Where in So. California

Question:

> I’m totally brand new to hunting. We, a friend and I normally go to the > Mojave Desert and hunt rabiits there. But the last 4 or 5 times we’ve been > there we’ve seen fewer and fewer rabbits. We are both very interested in > hunting a larger animal, but we dont know where to go. We live in L.A. and > are willing to travel, drive, 6 to 8 hours away. But again we dont know > where. Can anyone help. > Thanks in advance. > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

You can try this hunting forum, bunch of California hunters hang out here. http://www.jesseshuntingpage.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard//ikonboard.cgi ~Jesse Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I recently went camping on some BLM land..it’s around Bakersfield, actually just south and west of it.  The exact place was called Crocker Springs, it was in the Carizzo planes area. I’m not sure how big the area is, as I’ve not seen it on a map, but I know it’s not land locked..I saw several deer there one morning and there werent TOO many people there.    Only saw one or two driving off in the distance. There’s also some cows, so check that target first. Hopefully that can help you a little. -Max Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I’m totally brand new to hunting. We, a friend and I normally go to the Mojave Desert and hunt rabiits there. But the last 4 or 5 times we’ve been there we’ve seen fewer and fewer rabbits. We are both very interested in hunting a larger animal, but we dont know where to go. We live in L.A. and are willing to travel, drive, 6 to 8 hours away. But again we dont know where. Can anyone help. Thanks in advance. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Santa Monica would be a good place to start,,,,,,you’d be very popular with all the animal rights wackos.  Not. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Go to the sporting goods section in Wal-Mart, or some other store, and pick up a copy of the Dept. of Fish & Game "Big Game" booklet.  Bear in mind that I might not be quoting the exact nomenclature.  In this guide, you can find California broken down into different hunting zones.  Check out which zones are in the southern CA area and look at the hunting statistics (number of tags issued, success rate, etc.).  Then get some road and topo maps. Another great map is the national forest maps that show private versus public land, and also a lot of logging roads, etc. Pick where you might think you’d like to go, and go scout it out.  Another good source is to just talk to other hunters that you either meet in your area, or in one of the areas you decide to check out.  I hope that this suggestion helps you out.  I can’t give you any specific suggestions because I am not familiar with southern CA. Good luck.

> I’m totally brand new to hunting. We, a friend and I normally go to the > Mojave Desert and hunt rabiits there. But the last 4 or 5 times we’ve been > there we’ve seen fewer and fewer rabbits. We are both very interested in > hunting a larger animal, but we dont know where to go. We live in L.A. and > are willing to travel, drive, 6 to 8 hours away. But again we dont know > where. Can anyone help.

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Recoil tables?

Question:

I’m thinking about purchasing a new rifle.  Browning A-Bolt, left handed.  I already have a Ruger M77 30-06 that I’ve had since youth, but it kicks, and then I flinch.  After years of putting up with it, it’s time to change. I’ve decided to sacrifice some foot pounds at 200 yards for lighter recoil. Is anyone aware of a set of tables that shows the recoil of various calibers with standard factory loads?  I know this will vary somewhat given the gun, the load, etc…. but would like some general guidelines. I’m thinking .308 or .270, but would consider the .260 or .280, or 7×57.  I know most people think I need to carry a Magnum to shoot Elk, but I’ve killed several with the 30-06 using either 165g or 180g bullets with no problems.  I’ll be using it for elk and mule deer only, no varmits, pigs, or moose. Alan Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Alan, Here’s something else to consider.  If you like the rifle that you have and it shoots well, first of all, change the recoil pad to a good Pachmayr or equivilant.  Most factory recoil pads (for lack of a better term) suck.  A good one will reduce felt recoil considerably. Then, have a muzzle brake installed on your existing barrel.  Sure, it will increase the muzzle blast, but you wouldn’t believe the reduction in recoil. I have one on a .300 Win Mag and the felt recoil is less than my son’s 6.5×55 Swedish Mauser. It’s an option that’ll keep you shooting a rifle that you’re familiar with. — http://www.herefishyfishy.com The Official Website of the ROFBMP Northwoods Classic http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Can anyone recommend a good gunsmith in the Idaho Falls, Idaho area who can install a recoil pad and a muzzle brake? Alan Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Here’s a recoil table I found. http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm Good Luck! Bruce L. Nelson www.bucktrack.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m thinking about purchasing a new rifle.  Browning A-Bolt, left handed. I > already have a Ruger M77 30-06 that I’ve had since youth, but it kicks, and > then I flinch.  After years of putting up with it, it’s time to change. > I’ve decided to sacrifice some foot pounds at 200 yards for lighter recoil. > Is anyone aware of a set of tables that shows the recoil of various calibers > with standard factory loads?  I know this will vary somewhat given the gun, > the load, etc…. but would like some general guidelines. > I’m thinking .308 or .270, but would consider the .260 or .280, or 7×57. I > know most people think I need to carry a Magnum to shoot Elk, but I’ve > killed several with the 30-06 using either 165g or 180g bullets with no > problems.  I’ll be using it for elk and mule deer only, no varmits, pigs, or > moose. > Alan > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Hey Alan, why not try going to a heavier stock. Increased weight in the stock can reduce the recoil a lot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.hunting Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 3:28 PM > I’m thinking about purchasing a new rifle.  Browning A-Bolt, left handed. I > already have a Ruger M77 30-06 that I’ve had since youth, but it kicks, and > then I flinch.  After years of putting up with it, it’s time to change. > I’ve decided to sacrifice some foot pounds at 200 yards for lighter recoil. > Is anyone aware of a set of tables that shows the recoil of various calibers > with standard factory loads?  I know this will vary somewhat given the gun, > the load, etc…. but would like some general guidelines. > I’m thinking .308 or .270, but would consider the .260 or .280, or 7×57. I > know most people think I need to carry a Magnum to shoot Elk, but I’ve > killed several with the 30-06 using either 165g or 180g bullets with no > problems.  I’ll be using it for elk and mule deer only, no varmits, pigs, or > moose. > Alan > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Here’s a recoil table I found. http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm Good Luck! Bruce L. Nelson www.bucktrack.com Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I’ve decided to sacrifice some foot pounds at 200 yards for lighter > recoil. Is anyone aware of a set of tables that shows the recoil of > various calibers with standard factory loads?

http://www.accuratereloading.com/recoil.html Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I’m thinking about purchasing a new rifle.  Browning A-Bolt, left handed. I > already have a Ruger M77 30-06 that I’ve had since youth, but it kicks, and > then I flinch.  After years of putting up with it, it’s time to change. > I’m thinking .308 or .270, but would consider the .260 or .280, or 7×57. I > know most people think I need to carry a Magnum to shoot Elk, but I’ve > killed several with the 30-06 using either 165g or 180g bullets with no > problems.  I’ll be using it for elk and mule deer only, no varmits, pigs, or > moose. > Alan

To cut down on perceived recoil, you have 3 choices… heavier rifle, smaller caliber, better recoil pad/fit.  Since your game of choice is Elk & mulies, smaller caliber is probably out.  The caliber’s you mention would be good for deer but marginal, at best, for elk.  A 308 & 270 are very similar to a 30-06 in recoil and ballistics.  A heavier rifle/scope combination may not be a good idea for you; depends on how heavy your current rig is.  That leaves you with recoil pad/fit. Fit is very important and can make a big difference on perceived recoil. Since you’ve had the rifle since youth, I’d guess that you need to look at the fit.  You have changed over the years but the rifle hasn’t.  I recently bought a M70 Winchester in 30-06.  It suffered from accuracy problems and recoil from the bench was punishing.  Changing ammo helped the accuracy problem, changing the stock to a Hogue OM tamed the recoil; it was a little heavier, fit me better and had a built in recoil pad. Of course, none of this should dissuade you from getting a new rifle. Everyone needs one once in a while and the Browning is a good one. Good Luck Roy D Sacramento Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Can anyone recommend a good gunsmith in Idaho Falls, Idaho who could install a recoil pad and a muzzle brake for me? Alan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Alan, > Here’s something else to consider.  If you like the rifle that you have and > it shoots well, first of all, change the recoil pad to a good Pachmayr or > equivilant.  Most factory recoil pads (for lack of a better term) suck.  A > good one will reduce felt recoil considerably. > Then, have a muzzle brake installed on your existing barrel.  Sure, it will > increase the muzzle blast, but you wouldn’t believe the reduction in recoil. > I have one on a .300 Win Mag and the felt recoil is less than my son’s > 6.5×55 Swedish Mauser. > It’s an option that’ll keep you shooting a rifle that you’re familiar with. > — > http://www.herefishyfishy.com > The Official Website of the ROFBMP Northwoods Classic > http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I’ve never seen a recoil table.  A recoil formula is usually used instead. After a search of my reference books failed to produce the formula (though I know I have it somewhere), I tried a search engine which took me the website below. http://www.steveellis.com/RcoilEng.xls (I checked out the formula and it’s good.  We all owe this Steve Ellis is hearty thanks for making this tool available to everyone.  I bookmarked his site.) First thing to do is to establish a benchmark estimate of the level of recoil you’ve been experiencing in your .06. If you shoot factory ammo and don’t know what to put in for powder, I’d say 55 grains is a decent estimate.  Hopefully you know your muzzle velocity; if not try 2800 with the 165 grain and 2700 with the 180. My Ruger Model 77 weighs about 8.5 lbs. with a scope and strap.  However, this is on a scale that weighs in half-pound increments, so it’s not exact.  The Gun Trader’s Guide states that the bare rifle weighs about seven lbs.  By comparison, I have a 24-inch barreled Winchester that weighs 9.5 lbs. on my scale and is described as weighing 7 and 3/4 lbs. in the book. I’m going into a lot of detail about the weight in part because I suspect this is part of your problem.  The Ruger is a lighter than average gun, and if you play with the gun weight in the first column you can see proportional changes in recoil energy.  In other words, the Ruger should have just about 10% more recoil than the Winchester simply because it’s 10% lighter.  So part of your problem is the rifle itself. Obviously you could achieve some recoil reduction by removing your Ruger’s stock, drilling some holes and plugging them with lead, but I don’t recommend this.  The modern trend is toward lighter rifles, and anyone who lives in elk country as you apparently do can appreciate that. Now that you’ve got a handy recoil formula worksheet, all you’ll need to play what-ifs until your eyes glaze over is a reloading manual with powder weights and velocities, plus a copy of Stoeger Publishing’s Gun Trader’s Guide (available at many Wal-Marts) which provides approximate weights for most makes and models of guns. Earlier someone suggested getting a Pachmayer recoil pad.  These do work really well, and if most of your sufferering has been in the shoulder, that just might be the best answer.  But recoil pads don’t reduce muzzle blast or cheekbone punishment. Personally, I hate muzzle breaks.  They simply transfer  the suffering from the shooter to the people near him, and I think they ruin the looks of a gun.  I suspect that 10 or 20 years from now muzzle breaks will be thought of as one of those unfortunate trends which, like the polychoke on shotguns, ruined a lot of really nice guns. By the way, Gun Trader’s Guide gives the weight of a walnut-stocked Browning A-Bolt, non-magnum caliber, 22-inch barrel, as 7 and 1/2 lbs.  I’m guessing a synthetic stock would be even lighter though I can’t say for sure as my issue is from 1994 and doesn’t list many synthetics. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

.25-20 Cartridge

Question:

Hello Andy ! I posses a Winchester Model 92 WCF .25-20. This gun was inherited from my grandfather and then passed along to me. I know from conversations that this particular Gun – was a lever action saddle gun 20" barrel.  An was used by trappers to bag light skinned game animals at close range. The 25-20 is an excellent youth gun, as well as a fine short range centerfire rifle. I shoot this rifle to shoot porcupines and other small critters also. Ammo is fairly expensive, I use Factory loaded Winchester Arms Ammo.  I have been saving my brass for several seasons. The Super – X Ammo from Winchester, comes factory loaded in 86 grain soft point bullet. It is a rapid expansion or fragmentation on impact round. Here is some ballistic info that I have discovered velocity (fps)                                            Energy(ft-lbs.) Trajectory muzzle    100    200    300    400    500    muzzle 100    200    300    400 500     100    200    300    400    500 1460      1194    1030    931  858   798    407     272   203    165   141 122      -4.1   -14.4  -31.8  -57.3 Good luck and success with this fine rifle. I keep my rifle soaking in oil to make sure the blued finish does not tarnish. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I have a Marlin 94 Classic in 25-20. I shoot handloads exclusively. One of the best bullets I have found for the 25-20 is a cast lead 75 grain gas checked bullet.  The load I have been using is 13.5 grains of Accurate Arms 2200 with a CCI small magnum primer. These chronograph at 1500 fps. I shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with iron sights. You can get the bullets at www.bonusbullets.com Scott Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

.22 mag question

Question:

> I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated. > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

While I don’t have the numbers at the moment, the 22 Mag and 22 Long Rifle are not interchangeable. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> > I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be

appreciated. The short answer is NO! The brass case and case head on the .22 Mag are about 0.014" larger diameter than on a .22S/L/LR.   That means a normal .22 will flop around in the chamber, with the case walls unsupported, and a case rupture is likely. That means hot gases going who knows where? The .22Mag bullet is .223 instead of .224, but that wouldn’t matter much as the difference in case size. The Ruger Super Single Six revolver can shoot both types, but the Ruger uses two different cylinders – one for .22 Mag and the other for .22 Short, Long and Long Rifle. — Jim Rogers , NRA member AKA  Coyote Hunter Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated.

Don’t do it.  The .22 Mag is slightly larger in diameter than a .22 long rifle, or any of the other .22 rim fires.  The extra space will cause you no end of trouble. Brian Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Are there adapters that will allow 22 lr to be shot in a 22 mag ? Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> Are there adapters that will allow 22 lr to be shot in > a 22 mag ?

Not that I’m aware of; I’d expect that the difference in case diameter isn’t quite great enough for that to work. Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated. > You probably wouldn’t hurt the gun but you could very likely hurt yourself. > .22 short, long, and long rifle shells have a thinner rim and smaller case > diameter; the thinner rim means it typically won’t reliably fire, but if it > does, the smaller case diameter means it’ll split in the chamber and vent > powder gasses, half burned powder, and brass shrapnel from somewhere or > other.   It’s a really good way to lose an eye.  Don’t do it, don’t even try > it.

Maybe a stupid question for all you experts out there…I’ve never even looked at a .22 Mag…but does the .22 Mag use rim fire or center fire?  If I was a gun designer I think I would make the .22 Mag a centerfire…and therefore reduce the judgement error since the .22 is the all time favorite caliber for getting newbies started… HH Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated.

You probably wouldn’t hurt the gun but you could very likely hurt yourself. .22 short, long, and long rifle shells have a thinner rim and smaller case diameter; the thinner rim means it typically won’t reliably fire, but if it does, the smaller case diameter means it’ll split in the chamber and vent powder gasses, half burned powder, and brass shrapnel from somewhere or other.   It’s a really good way to lose an eye.  Don’t do it, don’t even try it. .22 special (aka .22 WRF) ammo can safely be fired in a .22 magnum gun, but why?  .22 special shells have been in only limited production for 30 years or more and are even more expensive than .22 magnum.   Further, some lots have a thinner rim and will not reliably fire in all .22 magnum chambers. If you’re trying to shoot for cheap, you bought the wrong gun.  The .22 mag is a great little cartridge, but it’s a mite expensive for plinking.  I’d suggest if cost of ammo is a problem, trade it or buy a .22 long rifle. Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Hi Chad,   The answer is a big no!  The 22 mag chamber is larger in diameter. A regular fired in the 22 mag chamber would most likely split.  Then all kinds of bad things happen; escaping gas, unburnt powder, case fragments, squiting everywhere.  And, if you are shooting a rifle guest where your face is located???   Yea, you got it!   There may be something that will shoot ing the 22 mag chamber without bad things happening; but I’ll bet you that it will cost you more than the 22 mag ammo.  Have fun and be safe, Joe > I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two > rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated. > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I have a  22 Mag. I was wondering if I could shoot the other twenty two rounds out of it without hurting the gun?  Any help would be appreciated. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

CVA Magbolt 150

Question:

Before anyone says anything…..I know I probably shouldn’t have bought a cheap rifle About 3 weeks ago, I bought a CVA MagBolt 150 that was on sale at Bass Pro Shops.  Quality of the gun was about what one would expect for 120 bucks. Fired it about 15 to 20 times on the range getting ready for a deer hunt on a Texas WMA.  Thought it was ready even though we had had a couple of misfires. Second morning of the hunt, my 17 year old called me on the radio and said that he had aimed at a doe and all he got from the rifle was a "click". Cap didn’t fire.  Recycled the bolt and tried again……"click". Took the bolt apart when we got back home, and the spring fell out in many pieces with the largest piece of spring about 3/4 of an inch. Luckily, Bass Pro shops stood up and took the d… thing back and allowed me to upgrade to a Knight.  Should have bought the Knight to begin with. It took CVA a week to reply to my email. I have been looking at Inline ML for a few months and done a lot of reaserch. I have looked at CVA, Knight,  White and T/C. I really liked the look of the CVA guns but I have heard they are not the best in quality. I have spoke with a few people who liked them though and have had no problems. I am not sure how well CVA’s customer service is. White Systems makes a good gun but they are pretty pricey. A lot of guys here in the west seem to really like them though. It really was a toss up between Knight and T/C. I liked the looks of the T/C Black Diamond and the Knight Bighorn. I think they are both good guns and most importantly both companys stand behind there product 100%. I ended up getting the Knight (come on Xmas!) because a friend has one and I liked how it shoots. Mark Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Before anyone says anything…..I know I probably shouldn’t have bought a cheap rifle About 3 weeks ago, I bought a CVA MagBolt 150 that was on sale at Bass Pro Shops.  Quality of the gun was about what one would expect for 120 bucks. Fired it about 15 to 20 times on the range getting ready for a deer hunt on a Texas WMA.  Thought it was ready even though we had had a couple of misfires. Second morning of the hunt, my 17 year old called me on the radio and said that he had aimed at a doe and all he got from the rifle was a "click". Cap didn’t fire.  Recycled the bolt and tried again……"click". Took the bolt apart when we got back home, and the spring fell out in many pieces with the largest piece of spring about 3/4 of an inch. Luckily, Bass Pro shops stood up and took the d… thing back and allowed me to upgrade to a Knight.  Should have bought the Knight to begin with. It took CVA a week to reply to my email. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Savage 110 30-06 bullet weight?

Question:

Flip a coin on these two rounds for deer and hog.  They both will do the job in like manner.  I have hunted the 150 gr core-lokt for years without any fear of it not doing it’s job.  I used 150gr because that was what my dad started me out on.  I have moved on to handloads now, but there is a soft spot in my……enough of that. Depending on how big your deer are I would go with the 180 if I was going to start over. Scott Young – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.hunting Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 5:16 PM > I am wondering what is a good over all weight for whitetail and hogs? I have > hunted for years with a shotgun but this is my first rifle. I have been > using Remington Express Core-lokt 150 grain pointed soft point. I have > sighted the gun into a nice grouping at 100 yards. Anyone had any experience > with this ammo? All my shots will be within 100 yards or closer. Will it be > effective on both Whitetail and Hogs? Today I took the rifle out to the > range and after 2 sets of 3 with the 150 grain I switched to 180 grain > Express Core-lokt to see the difference. The 180 grain hit the target 3" > lower than the 150 grain. I am guessing because of the weight. > I was amazed in the change. I have tried different ammo in my Remington 870 > 12 gauge with just a little difference in pattern but I have learned there > is a big difference in a rifle ammo. Is the type of ammo allot like personal > rifle preference? I am getting very comfortable with the 150 grain Remington > ammo and I feel I know where the bullet if going to end up. > Thanks in advance for anyone’s assistance, > Robert Jackson > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Most .30 cals seem to like 165gr. bullets how ever not all co. offer them loaded. And yes most guns do have a prefference for a particular load. Unless you reload keep experimenting until you find a factory load thats "just right" for your particular gun. Then buy a case of that lot. Luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.hunting Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 6:16 PM > I am wondering what is a good over all weight for whitetail and hogs? I have > hunted for years with a shotgun but this is my first rifle. I have been > using Remington Express Core-lokt 150 grain pointed soft point. I have > sighted the gun into a nice grouping at 100 yards. Anyone had any experience > with this ammo? All my shots will be within 100 yards or closer. Will it be > effective on both Whitetail and Hogs? Today I took the rifle out to the > range and after 2 sets of 3 with the 150 grain I switched to 180 grain > Express Core-lokt to see the difference. The 180 grain hit the target 3" > lower than the 150 grain. I am guessing because of the weight. > I was amazed in the change. I have tried different ammo in my Remington 870 > 12 gauge with just a little difference in pattern but I have learned there > is a big difference in a rifle ammo. Is the type of ammo allot like personal > rifle preference? I am getting very comfortable with the 150 grain Remington > ammo and I feel I know where the bullet if going to end up. > Thanks in advance for anyone’s assistance, > Robert Jackson > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I got a gold crown grade 835 and i just got a ported slug barrel with a scope mount that im using this year for buck! why? because were im gonna hunt is in the thick brush…Todd Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>I am wondering what is a good over all weight for whitetail and hogs? I have >hunted for years with a shotgun but this is my first rifle. I have been >using Remington Express Core-lokt 150 grain pointed soft point. I have >sighted the gun into a nice grouping at 100 yards. Anyone had any experience >with this ammo?

I shot my first deer last year with that exact round, from a 22" barrel. He was about 40 yards away, and I hit him perfectly behind the shoulder, perfectly at least for a quick kill.  Anyway, he dropped instantly, and the bullet left a big ol’ exit hole, so I guess I have no complaints with the performance of the round/bullet. All that said, I’ve heard it argued pretty persuasively that 180’s are the better choice for 30-06.  Better penetration, lower velocity which helps jellify less venison, and a ballistic path that is not significantly different than the 150 at practical hunting ranges. For deer the 150 Core-Lokt’s are fine, but for hogs I’d use 180-gn Partitions, which are a much tougher bullet that still expands nicely, and while you are at it, use them for deer too <g>!  I’ve never hunted hogs, but that would be the thing to use… >effective on both Whitetail and Hogs? Today I took the rifle out to the >range and after 2 sets of 3 with the 150 grain I switched to 180 grain >Express Core-lokt to see the difference. The 180 grain hit the target 3" >lower than the 150 grain. I am guessing because of the weight.

Different brands of ammo, even if they are the SAME bullet weight, will usually group if different places… Enjoy your new rifle! -jeff Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Since we’re talking about slug guns, I have a question. I just got back from my first deer hunt in Indiana (I got a 6 point with my muzzleloader). I have a Mossburg 835 Ulti-Mag (turkey choke) that I might would like to get a rifled barrel for, if possible. Anyone have any suggestions? I’d like to shoot a shotgun up there next year. I would only need it for hunting up there. We have a very long season here in SC where we can use rifles. Thanks, Tommy Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I am wondering what is a good over all weight for whitetail and hogs? I have > hunted for years with a shotgun but this is my first rifle. I have been > using Remington Express Core-lokt 150 grain pointed soft point. I have > sighted the gun into a nice grouping at 100 yards. Anyone had any

experience PERFECT…  Stick with it…  Won’t dissapoint you.  Remmeber the KISS principle REM7600 Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I have one of the Mossberg 24 inch rifled barrels for my 835. I have been pleased with it and can get tight groups fro it. I got it directly from Mossberg, check out their web site: www.mossberg.com

> Since we’re talking about slug guns, I have a question. I just got back > from my first deer hunt in Indiana (I got a 6 point with my muzzleloader). > I have a Mossburg 835 Ulti-Mag (turkey choke) that I might would like to > get a rifled barrel for, if possible. Anyone have any suggestions? I’d like > to shoot a shotgun up there next year. I would only need it for hunting up > there. We have a very long season here in SC where we can use rifles. > Thanks, > Tommy > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I am wondering what is a good over all weight for whitetail and hogs? I have > hunted for years with a shotgun but this is my first rifle. I have been > using Remington Express Core-lokt 150 grain pointed soft point. I have > sighted the gun into a nice grouping at 100 yards. Anyone had any experience > with this ammo? All my shots will be within 100 yards or closer. Will it be > effective on both Whitetail and Hogs? Today I took the rifle out to the > range and after 2 sets of 3 with the 150 grain I switched to 180 grain > Express Core-lokt to see the difference. The 180 grain hit the target 3" > lower than the 150 grain. I am guessing because of the weight. > I was amazed in the change. I have tried different ammo in my Remington 870 > 12 gauge with just a little difference in pattern but I have learned there > is a big difference in a rifle ammo. Is the type of ammo allot like personal > rifle preference? I am getting very comfortable with the 150 grain Remington > ammo and I feel I know where the bullet if going to end up. > Thanks in advance for anyone’s assistance, > Robert Jackson

That’s fairly normal.   Remember, you’re not shooting your shotgun at 100 yards.  If you patterned it at 50, then 100, you’d find that the center of the pattern drops quite a bit.   Shotguns are pretty sensitive to load changes, not so much in center of pattern as in pattern density and consistency.  Each type of gun has it’s idiosynchracies. Anyway, a 3" change in point of impact isn’t unusual.  Part of it can be change in bullet weight affecting velocity.  It could be affected by the muzzle being not square … many rifles "flip" the bullets a little as they leave the muzzle, sometimes consistently enough that they still group extremely well, just not where you expect.   Changes in the shape of the bullet can do the same thing. Example … I shot 50 grain Speer TNTs and 50 grain Nosler Ballistic tips out of my .220 Swift with the same max load of H380 to nearly the same velocity, both grouped very very well, but about 2-1/2 inches apart at 100 yards.  The difference was the shape of the bullet and how they’d act as they left the muzzle. Personally, for a do-most-anything ‘06 factory load I have a great preference for 180s over 150s or any other weight.   They shoot plenty flat enough for anything an ‘06 should be used for and hit harder at all ranges.   Among cheap ‘06 ammo, I like the 180 grain CoreLokt Remington, among better grade ammo I like Federal premium with the Nosler 180 grain partition bullet. Considering your 100 yard maximum range, I’d probably go with 200 grain bullets instead; they still go plenty fast enough to expand, the trajectory is still string-flat within 100 yards, and they penetrate better than the light bullets can.   More than likely, the lower velocity will also leave you with less meat damage. Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I am wondering what is a good over all weight for whitetail and hogs? I have hunted for years with a shotgun but this is my first rifle. I have been using Remington Express Core-lokt 150 grain pointed soft point. I have sighted the gun into a nice grouping at 100 yards. Anyone had any experience with this ammo? All my shots will be within 100 yards or closer. Will it be effective on both Whitetail and Hogs? Today I took the rifle out to the range and after 2 sets of 3 with the 150 grain I switched to 180 grain Express Core-lokt to see the difference. The 180 grain hit the target 3" lower than the 150 grain. I am guessing because of the weight. I was amazed in the change. I have tried different ammo in my Remington 870 12 gauge with just a little difference in pattern but I have learned there is a big difference in a rifle ammo. Is the type of ammo allot like personal rifle preference? I am getting very comfortable with the 150 grain Remington ammo and I feel I know where the bullet if going to end up. Thanks in advance for anyone’s assistance, Robert Jackson Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Nosler Ball. Tip in 06 for antelope??

Question:

I am thinking of trying the Nosler 125 gr. Ballistic Tip in my 30-06 for hunting antelope…. I would like to hear from others who have experience with this combo. What was your load? Bullet seating depth? Velocity and barrel length? Accuracy? Bullet performance on game? Were you satisifed with the accuracy and bullet performance? I am concerned with seating that relatively short bullet deep enough Was that a problem for you?   Do you feel it affected accuracy?                                        Lee Carkenord Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

My question is why would you want to use this bullet?  Ballistic tips are great, but why 125 grain?  Why not 150 or 165? I know you can get higher velocities and flatter trajectories with the lighter bullets and that antelope don’t require heavy projectiles, but all I’ve read about the 30.06 indicates it is most accurate in the 150 to 180 range.  Also, the lighter bullets don’t maintain their course down range as well as the heavier bullets, and THAT can be very important on an antelope hunt! I’d go with 165 grain Nosler B.T.s at velocities slightly above mid-range in the loading manuals and practice out to 350 yards.  The larger bullet should also eliminate your concern about being able to seat closer to the lands. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I am thinking of trying the Nosler 125 gr. Ballistic Tip in my 30-06 > for hunting antelope….

I can get close to that…. > I would like to hear from others who have experience with this combo. > What was your load?

.270Win with 130-gr BTs, H4831SC powder, Remington 9_1/2M primers, Winchester brass. > Bullet seating depth?

.180 from lands. > Velocity and barrel length?

2960 +/- 20 fps, 24" bbl. > Accuracy?

> Bullet performance on game?

Excellent, from 245 yds on average. > Were you satisifed with the accuracy and bullet performance?

Yes. > I am concerned with seating that relatively short bullet deep enough > Was that a problem for you?   Do you feel it affected accuracy?

I don’t know the length difference between the 130-gr .270 and the 125-gr .308 bullets, and of course I don’t know the throat depth ("freebore") of your rifle, but I’ve gotten the best accuracy from my rifles when I seat the bullet between .150 – .190 from contact with the lands, calibers .22-250, 6mmRem, .270Win, 7mmRemMag, .308Win.  My .270 has a pretty fair "freebore"; my cartridge OAL exceeds "book" by about a quarter inch when I seat the bullets .180 off the lands.     -jc- Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> My question is why would you want to use this bullet?  Ballistic tips are > great, but why 125 grain?  Why not 150 or 165?

I agree.  When I had an 06, I loaded 165 gr. ballistic tips and had fantastic success with this bullet.  I know that I was using Winchester 760 powder but I don’t remember the grains loaded. With this powder/bullet combination, I was able to hold 1/2 inch groups at 150 yards and was pretty good out to 300. The 165’s seemed to have almost as flat a trajectory as the 150’s, yet they have a lot more downfield energy. Every whitetail that I shot with this round went down in one shot.  Believe me, that was a lot of deer too. — http://www.herefishyfishy.com The Official Website of the ROFBMP Northwoods Classic http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>My question is why would you want to use this bullet?  Ballistic tips are >great, but why 125 grain?  Why not 150 or 165?…. Also, the lighter bullets >don’t maintain their course down range as well as the >heavier bullets, and THAT can be very important on an antelope hunt!

The 125-grain bullet is highly accurate at very long range, but it is a varmint bullet, not a game bullet.  While it may give very quick kills on antleope, it may also damage too much meat or not penetrate when needed.  I too would recommend the 150 or 165-grain bullets for long range antelope hunting.  Their  tougher construction will give better penetration when needed, yet they still expand rapidly on initial contact for quick kills. Jay T Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response: