Comments on Whitetail Drive ethics
Question:
>I’m a believer in the first fatal hit. If the shot that you made would have >been sufficient to kill the deer, then the animal should have been yours. >Your friend’s (friend ?)"he who kills, keeps" rule doesn’t hold water as >far as I’m concerned. If the animal was felled but still breathing and he >ran up and put a finishing shot in her, would he be able to claim it? >With that said, I would think that since a deer drive is a "joint effort" >that there should be a understanding that everyone would share in the >drive’s success. In other words, all animals would be butchered & would >be evenly divided among the participants.The only thing that I can say to >you is that your "friend" was hard up to kill/claim the animal. If I was >in your boots, I’d think twice about hunting with him again. >As far as shooting a deer that someone else has shot. Yes, I would do it. >If the aniaml is still ambulatory and there is a "chance" that they might >get away, I’d shoot it. I would still apply the "first fatal" hit rule.
WE hunt deer by driving them to standers also it doesn’t matter who shoots the deer because we all helped so when the deer get all cut up and packaged the meat is divided up equally among everybody. That is the only fair way to do it as far as I am concerned!
Response:
It would have been wrong for him not to shoot her. A wounded animal should be put down as quickly as possible. As for who the animal belongs to, the three general rules of thumb are "first hit", "last hit", or "first fatal hit" – meaning the first wound that obviously would have been fatal had noone else shot the animal afterwards. It sounds like your friend is adding a fourth – "last fatal hit". It really is a matter of opinion, and customs vary widely across the country. IMHO "first fatal hit" is the appropriate way to determine who gets the carcass. In particularly contentions situations where grey areas (or a** holes) are involved, deals such as splitting the meat, or one person taking the trophy, the other the meat, etc. etc. etc. are called for. I think it was your deer. Steve Jones
Response:
> I was Hunting recently in Central New York. Three members of our snip > doe. The hit was obvious as she stumbled, began to lie down and then ran. > My experience told me that it was a shot near her spine. Another hunter > in our party saw me shoot her, he even yelled congratulations to me as she > began to buckle. However, here is my predicament. After she ran, she > crossed into his path at short range. He took a shot and put her down. > He claims that the rule is, "he who kills, keeps". I cannot disagree with > this, but why would he take his shot after an obvious hit by me. When we
This sort of etiquette varies immensely from region to region and from club to club. I hunt with my extended family, so we tend to share and share alike. IOW, everyone who participates in the hunt gets an equal share of the meat. This includes those who were not present when the deer was shot, and even those who just helped set up stands before the season. The head goes to whoever wants it most. Usually this means the person who fired the fatal bullet, but it can mean the one who wants to spend money on a mount. The sort of dispute yoeu reported can spoil a pleasant outing, so the best policy is just to clearly enunciate whatever rule your club wants to follow before you set out. Post hoc rules are never entirely satisfactory. Whatever rule you follow, I think that it is a good policy for anyone who has a safe shot to keep shooting at a wounded deer until the deer is down for keeps. It is easy to misjudge bullet placement (was that shot 4" fore or aft of the diaphragm?), so it is best to err on the side of caution. — Keep your stick on the ice.
Response:
As someone who has hunted in groups many times Ive learned the importance of having rules set up in advance of hunting as we( and I mean hunting with my family) have different ways of looking at a situation. We do all agree that the majortiy should rule in all situations. so I guess my answer is that whatever your group thinks is right would be what you should do. Good hunting. Bill
Response:
> However, here is my predicament. After she ran, she >crossed into his path at short range. He took a shot and put her down. >He claims that the rule is, "he who kills, keeps". I cannot disagree >this, but why would he take his shot after an obvious hit by
I was going to stay away from this thread, but no one ever accused me of possessing restraint; It is beyond my comprehension why there would be a disagreement over a deer harvested as a result of a "drive". You need new hunting companions. I assume there must not be any sharing of the game, because if there was, I’d let someone else tag all they wanted, and I would go on to hunt another day. If this involved perfect strangers it would be understandable but again if someone wants to tag and take the deer that bad, unless my family is going to starve that winter – let them have it. I guess I enjoy being in the woods to much and less concerned about "body counts". Now for a brief editorial, I feel that NY whitetail deer drives are accidents waiting to happen and I can’t see the merit or fun in them, other than putting meat on the table. You’ve got people pushing deer towards others in positions to shoot them when they see them !!! HELLO, is there something wrong with this picture? People are down range, the target is usually running to beat all hell, and you can’t tell me everyone knows where everyone is. The final thought – is this hunting ??? Now lets add insult to injury and argue over a deer harvested in this manner on who dispatched the animal !!! I have friends who organize and are involved in "drives". I chose not to participate and pray none of them get hurt. I’m off still hunting, with patience and enjoying the environment.I may not end up with as much "meat" but I fell I end up with more "sport". Mark A Berger (Master Hunting Safety Instructor) Madison County (Upstate NY) Someone who thinks logically provides a nice contrast to the real world.
Response:
> I would have shot at it if it was still running and I had a clear shot. > Better to kill it then take a chance losing it. I do the same thing > with ducks that have been hit by a partner. Kill the bird and avoid the > chance of losing (and wasting) it. On the other hand, if I fired the > second shot, I wouldn’t have hesitated to offer the deer to the guy who > made the first hit – hoping like heck that he’d offer to split! 
I > can’t imagine hunting with someone who wouldn’t look at that deer as > being a "team effort" kill.
I guess different hunters have different views on what is theirs but in the groups I’ve hunted with it is an unwritten agreement that all game meat is split evenly amongst the group and processing costs are equally shared. In a situation where an animal is wounded and still on the move another member of the party would be expected to finish the kill. If the animal was a trophy animal there might be some discussion over who gets the head/antlers but we’ve never had a disagreement on one yet. I’ve hunted with at least three different groups since moving to Colorado and have friends in others and this agreement seems to be common here. Larry If you don’t care where you are, you ain’t lost.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was Hunting recently in Central New York. Three members of our > party of eight were drive a set of Hardwoods. Much to our surprise, six > Doe trotted out of the Hardwoods to elude the drivers. I was the only > in position to take a shot, so I set up and aimed and hit a fair sized > doe. The hit was obvious as she stumbled, began to lie down and then > My experience told me that it was a shot near her spine. Another hunter > in our party saw me shoot her, he even yelled congratulations to me as > began to buckle. However, here is my predicament. After she ran, she > crossed into his path at short range. He took a shot and put her down. > He claims that the rule is, "he who kills, keeps". I cannot disagree > this, but why would he take his shot after an obvious hit by me. When we > processed her, my first guess was correct. There was a shot high on her > front quarter, the expansion of the shell caused spinal damage. His shot > cut her spine completely. (As a sidenote, we both need to sight our > guns.) I have only hunted for a few years and want to know everything I > can. Please comment on this story. I am especially curious if other > hunters would take a shot at a deer that they know has been obviously > seriously hit.
First of all, whenever an animal is injured by a hunter, it is that hunter’s, and all other hunter’s responsibility to see to it that the animal is dispatched, as quickly and humanely as possible and not wasted. It was good for him to take the follow up shot. In theory, he is wrong about the rule. It should be he who makes the first lethal shot keeps. In reality this is not the way it works. I hunt in PA and basically it seems to be whomever gets to the dead deer first keeps it. This, by the way, is ridiculous. I could go on for pages about this. We had a 74 year old guy knock down a nice buck last year, (on his birthday) and some 23 year old came up and took it from him because he shot it first. He tried to claim Walt shot it on the ground! He had hit it in the back leg. Walt’s shot went through the chest wiping out both lungs. Obviously, Walt had killed the deer. I’ll never figure out how claiming a deer you didn’t kill makes a person feel good. To me the biggest accomplishment is taking the deer myself. I’d just as soon keep hunting. Here’s the real deal as far as I’m concerned. If you are out hunting and you make a good shot on the deer, and another hunter shoots it, or wants to claim it, try to have a level-headed conversation and figure out who the deer belongs to. If he/she wants to insist the deer is theirs and is ready to get in a fight over it, let them have it. Chances are it isn’t your first deer and probably won’t be your last. It’s not worth getting in a fist/gun fight over! Pete
Response:
Sounds to me like you need to find some new hunting buddies. If I were in that situation, I would have shot the deer for two reasons: 1) to make sure that the deer was down without having to worry about tracking for possible miles 2) to put the deer down and out of its misery ASAP. My father and uncles used to hunt using drives fairly often, but they found that even though they saw more deer and had more shots, they also had a higher number of wounded deer with more tracking involved. That is understandable when you have deer that usually come out of the woods at a fairly good clip and people are shooting off-hand at running deer. As far as who should have kept the deer, I think that I would have quickly inspected the deer and tried to determine if the first shot was a mortal shot. I would have squeezed the trigger assuming that I was putting the deer down for you, not myself. That’s just me though. Scott
Response:
> I was Hunting recently in Central New York. Three members of our >party of eight were drive a set of Hardwoods. Much to our surprise, six >Doe trotted out of the Hardwoods to elude the drivers. I was the only one >in position to take a shot, so I set up and aimed and hit a fair sized >doe. The hit was obvious as she stumbled, began to lie down and then ran. > My experience told me that it was a shot near her spine. Another hunter >in our party saw me shoot her, he even yelled congratulations to me as she >began to buckle. However, here is my predicament. After she ran, she >crossed into his path at short range. He took a shot and put her down. >He claims that the rule is, "he who kills, keeps". I cannot disagree with >this, but why would he take his shot after an obvious hit by me. When we >processed her, my first guess was correct. There was a shot high on her >front quarter, the expansion of the shell caused spinal damage. His shot >cut her spine completely. (As a sidenote, we both need to sight our >guns.) I have only hunted for a few years and want to know everything I >can. Please comment on this story. I am especially curious if other >hunters would take a shot at a deer that they know has been obviously >seriously hit. I’m a believer in the first fatal hit. If the shot that you made would have been sufficient to kill the deer, then the animal should have been yours. Your friend’s (friend ?)"he who kills, keeps" rule doesn’t hold water as far as I’m concerned. If the animal was felled but still breathing and he ran up and put a finishing shot in her, would he be able to claim it? With that said, I would think that since a deer drive is a "joint effort" that there should be a understanding that everyone would share in the drive’s success. In other words, all animals would be butchered & would be evenly divided among the participants.The only thing that I can say to you is that your "friend" was hard up to kill/claim the animal. If I was in your boots, I’d think twice about hunting with him again. As far as shooting a deer that someone else has shot. Yes, I would do it. If the aniaml is still ambulatory and there is a "chance" that they might get away, I’d shoot it. I would still apply the "first fatal" hit rule. Woody Williams If you’re too busy to hunt, you’re too busy.
Response:
If I was hunting in a party and a wounded animal came running my way. I most certainly would shoot it, to hopefully end it’s suffering. I however would NOT keep it. IMHO, he should have shot it, you should have offered him a nice cut of meat and it should have been YOUR kill. If it would have dropped at his feet but still kicking, would he have still shot it and claimed it was his? In my mind that’s a strange policy. It also seems that encourages ‘every man for himself’ and could potentially screw up someone’s hard work. I think I’d find someone else to hunt with. Just my opinion. I think I was wrong once before. Good luck, Stephen 250-25X It’s possible. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was Hunting recently in Central New York. Three members of our > party of eight were drive a set of Hardwoods. Much to our surprise, six > Doe trotted out of the Hardwoods to elude the drivers. I was the only one > in position to take a shot, so I set up and aimed and hit a fair sized > doe. The hit was obvious as she stumbled, began to lie down and then ran. > My experience told me that it was a shot near her spine. Another hunter > in our party saw me shoot her, he even yelled congratulations to me as she > began to buckle. However, here is my predicament. After she ran, she > crossed into his path at short range. He took a shot and put her down. > He claims that the rule is, "he who kills, keeps". I cannot disagree with > this, but why would he take his shot after an obvious hit by me. When we > processed her, my first guess was correct. There was a shot high on her > front quarter, the expansion of the shell caused spinal damage. His shot > cut her spine completely. (As a sidenote, we both need to sight our > guns.) I have only hunted for a few years and want to know everything I > can. Please comment on this story. I am especially curious if other > hunters would take a shot at a deer that they know has been obviously > seriously hit.
Response:
However, here is my predicament. After she ran, she >crossed into his path at short range. He took a shot and put her down. >He claims that the rule is, "he who kills, keeps". I cannot disagree with >this, but why would he take his shot after an obvious hit by me. When we >processed her, my first guess was correct. There was a shot high on her >front quarter, the expansion of the shell caused spinal damage. His shot >cut her spine completely. (As a sidenote, we both need to sight our >guns.) I have only hunted for a few years and want to know everything I >can. Please comment on this story. I am especially curious if other >hunters would take a shot at a deer that they know has been obviously >seriously hit.
I am of the "first mortal hit gets the deer" school of thought. In the Smith clan (& our hunting friends), the original shooter would tag the deer in the above situation. In the event of a hard-hit deer that’s still going, we consider it "good hunting" to safely put down a deer for a fellow hunter. However, I realize that it’s not always so clear cut. What if the deer is gut-shot? Sure, it will *eventually* die, but that’s not a "mortal hit" IMO. Of course, one can avoid many (most?) such predicaments by only shooting at stationary targets, using a sighted-in gun, and practicing your shooting skills year-round.
Response:
In hunter education classes we stress the "Rule of First Blood", which is, "He who makes the first mortal hit takes the deer." If the first hit is questionable as to it’s effectiveness let the shoot have it anyways or if you are hunting together the first shooter can offer to split the deer. I have often taken a second shot on behalf a fellow hunter to quickly put down an animal. I do it to quickly avoid any suffering on the animals part and to assure that the animal is found easily. I will not get involved in any argument as to whether or not the first shot would have been eventually lethal. It automatically goes to the first shooter (assuming that there is 2 entry holes in it). Bill WI
Response:
|> > I was Hunting recently in Central New York. Three members of our |> snip |> > doe. The hit was obvious as she stumbled, began to lie down and then ran. |> > My experience told me that it was a shot near her spine. Another hunter |> > in our party saw me shoot her, he even yelled congratulations to me as she |> > began to buckle. However, here is my predicament. After she ran, she |> > crossed into his path at short range. He took a shot and put her down. |> > He claims that the rule is, "he who kills, keeps". I cannot disagree with |> > this, but why would he take his shot after an obvious hit by me. When we |> |> This sort of etiquette varies immensely from region to region and from |> club to club. I hunt with my extended family, so we tend to share and |> share alike. IOW, everyone who participates in the hunt gets an equal |> share of the meat. This includes those who were not present when the deer |> was shot, and even those who just helped set up stands before the season. |> The head goes to whoever wants it most. Usually this means the person who |> fired the fatal bullet, but it can mean the one who wants to spend money |> on a mount. |> |> The sort of dispute yoeu reported can spoil a pleasant outing, so the best |> policy is just to clearly enunciate whatever rule your club wants to |> follow before you set out. Post hoc rules are never entirely satisfactory. |> |> Whatever rule you follow, I think that it is a good policy for anyone who |> has a safe shot to keep shooting at a wounded deer until the deer is down |> for keeps. It is easy to misjudge bullet placement (was that shot 4" fore |> or aft of the diaphragm?), so it is best to err on the side of caution. |> — |> |> Keep your stick on the ice. |> I’m still pretty much a novice deer hunter but I can relate my duck hunting philosophy on the matter. It is understood when I duck hunt with someone that if they hit a duck and it doesn’t drop immediately, I will attempt to hit it again while still in the air. A duck that glides down or coasts down stands a good chance of getting away unfound if we don’t follow this rule. It is agreeded upon that the bird belongs to the first person that hits the bird. We consider this an extension of finishing a duck off on the water. — NSWCDD Dahlgren, VA My views and opinions are my own! We don’t understand the software or the hardware but we can *SEE* the blinking lights!
Response:
> I was Hunting recently in Central New York. Three members of our snip > doe. The hit was obvious as she stumbled, began to lie down and then ran. > My experience told me that it was a shot near her spine. Another hunter > in our party saw me shoot her, he even yelled congratulations to me as she > began to buckle. However, here is my predicament. After she ran, she > crossed into his path at short range. He took a shot and put her down. > He claims that the rule is, "he who kills, keeps". I cannot disagree with > this, but why would he take his shot after an obvious hit by me. When we
This sort of etiquette varies immensely from region to region and from club to club. I hunt with my extended family, so we tend to share and share alike. IOW, everyone who participates in the hunt gets an equal share of the meat. This includes those who were not present when the deer was shot, and even those who just helped set up stands before the season. The head goes to whoever wants it most. Usually this means the person who fired the fatal bullet, but it can mean the one who wants to spend money on a mount. The sort of dispute yoeu reported can spoil a pleasant outing, so the best policy is just to clearly enunciate whatever rule your club wants to follow before you set out. Post hoc rules are never entirely satisfactory. Whatever rule you follow, I think that it is a good policy for anyone who has a safe shot to keep shooting at a wounded deer until the deer is down for keeps. It is easy to misjudge bullet placement (was that shot 4" fore or aft of the diaphragm?), so it is best to err on the side of caution. — Keep your stick on the ice.
Response:
It would have been wrong for him not to shoot her. A wounded animal should be put down as quickly as possible. As for who the animal belongs to, the three general rules of thumb are "first hit", "last hit", or "first fatal hit" – meaning the first wound that obviously would have been fatal had noone else shot the animal afterwards. It sounds like your friend is adding a fourth – "last fatal hit". It really is a matter of opinion, and customs vary widely across the country. IMHO "first fatal hit" is the appropriate way to determine who gets the carcass. In particularly contentions situations where grey areas (or a** holes) are involved, deals such as splitting the meat, or one person taking the trophy, the other the meat, etc. etc. etc. are called for. I think it was your deer. Steve Jones
Response:
|> He took a shot and put her down. |> He claims that the rule is, "he who kills, keeps". Sounds like you’ve already sorted out the answer. Of course there may come a day when this rule accrues in your favor. |> I am especially curious if other |> hunters would take a shot at a deer that they know has been obviously |> seriously hit. That’s one of the many issues I have with drive-style hunts. One deer just might attract the ballistic attention of several hunters, which can be sloppy or even dangerous. I’d shoot to prevent a wounded deer from escaping I suppose, but I’d like to think I wouldn’t whack a deer someone else has obviously mortally wounded just to tag it for myself. So, are you going to hunt with the same crew next season? — Michael Brady
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was Hunting recently in Central New York. Three members of our > party of eight were drive a set of Hardwoods. Much to our surprise, six > Doe trotted out of the Hardwoods to elude the drivers. I was the only one > in position to take a shot, so I set up and aimed and hit a fair sized > doe. The hit was obvious as she stumbled, began to lie down and then ran. > My experience told me that it was a shot near her spine. Another hunter > in our party saw me shoot her, he even yelled congratulations to me as she > began to buckle. However, here is my predicament. After she ran, she > crossed into his path at short range. He took a shot and put her down. > He claims that the rule is, "he who kills, keeps". I cannot disagree with > this, but why would he take his shot after an obvious hit by me. When we > processed her, my first guess was correct. There was a shot high on her > front quarter, the expansion of the shell caused spinal damage. His shot > cut her spine completely. (As a sidenote, we both need to sight our > guns.) I have only hunted for a few years and want to know everything I > can. Please comment on this story. I am especially curious if other > hunters would take a shot at a deer that they know has been obviously > seriously hit.
I would have shot at it if it was still running and I had a clear shot. Better to kill it then take a chance losing it. I do the same thing with ducks that have been hit by a partner. Kill the bird and avoid the chance of losing (and wasting) it. On the other hand, if I fired the second shot, I wouldn’t have hesitated to offer the deer to the guy who made the first hit – hoping like heck that he’d offer to split! I can’t imagine hunting with someone who wouldn’t look at that deer as being a "team effort" kill. Tom Pink E.U.P. Duck Camp
Response:
I’ve seen and heard too many stories about deer running off and escaping. If it was still moving, I would have shot her. My opinion may be tainted by tracking a well hit doe about 2 miles last Saturday. It was the first deer I’ve ever lost… Tim
Response:
I was Hunting recently in Central New York. Three members of our party of eight were drive a set of Hardwoods. Much to our surprise, six Doe trotted out of the Hardwoods to elude the drivers. I was the only one in position to take a shot, so I set up and aimed and hit a fair sized doe. The hit was obvious as she stumbled, began to lie down and then ran. My experience told me that it was a shot near her spine. Another hunter in our party saw me shoot her, he even yelled congratulations to me as she began to buckle. However, here is my predicament. After she ran, she crossed into his path at short range. He took a shot and put her down. He claims that the rule is, "he who kills, keeps". I cannot disagree with this, but why would he take his shot after an obvious hit by me. When we processed her, my first guess was correct. There was a shot high on her front quarter, the expansion of the shell caused spinal damage. His shot cut her spine completely. (As a sidenote, we both need to sight our guns.) I have only hunted for a few years and want to know everything I can. Please comment on this story. I am especially curious if other hunters would take a shot at a deer that they know has been obviously seriously hit.
