Getting it right on NRA membership
Question:
All, It is clear to me as one who has become politically active within the last year, that the system does work, but not like it appears. Politicians don’t give a rats rear quarter panel about logic, the second amendment, civil rights, or any of the things we hold dear. They make there decisions based on the number of people bitchin’ and moaning about something. The last thing they want to do is ANYTHING. Any time they take any action, they make someone mad. Solution? Piss off the least amount of people. HCI and the likes are raising hell with your elected officials. You don’t like that, right? You not only need to make a polite call to your rep stating your position. You must be a part of the largest group involved. JOIN THAT GROUP. The NRA is the largest national group by far. JOIN! Join also the groups that are active locally. If you are not a member of SOME organization that has a block of votes you are not convincing your elected official to take you serious. I would join them ALL if I had the money. Since I don’t, I join the one’s that help me retain my rights the most. — Brian E. Smith Dublin, CA "The care of every man’s soul belongs to himself. But what if he neglect the care of it? Well what if he neglect the care of his health or his estate, which would more nearly relate to the state. Will the magistrate make a law that he not be poor or sick? Laws provide against injury from others; but not from ourselves. God himself will not save men against their wills." — Thomas Jefferson; October 1776
Response:
>I am glad that you advocate the NRA for many people, even if they/we >are pansies in your estimation. I would also agree that if you don’t >like the NRA, another org may be right for you. >OK. So now you’ve been duly noted as a staunch defender of the RKBA, >as well as someone astute enough to pierce the veil of NRA >incompetence and inadequate policies >Now I presume that since you have made your point, there remains no >reason for you to continue beating this dead horse?
Joe- I do not in the least consider NRA members to be anything other than pro-RKBA people with different political views than mine. I applaud them for their conviction and willingness to become involved. I am certainly not accusing them of incompetence or inadequacy, and I can’t figure out how you could possibly get that impression from what I posted, which consisted of glowing praise for NRA tempered by some criticism of their political strategies. I am also quite confused as to why my responses to being blatantly accused of being an anti and an ARF, and of NRA bashing, would be considered by you as beating a dead horse. Is it not within your definition of "netiquette" to respond to such accusations? -Don
Response:
Don, Superior rebuttal (though a bit verbose) and "a good read." I noted another respondent indicated you seemed to feel those of us who were NRA members were "pansies." Reading your posting, I have no clue as to where that was inferred. However —- This is, again, indicative of the problem we create for ourselves. In reading your posting, I see you give NRA credit for its obvious "clout" but chose to support (financially and idealogically) other organizations. Certainly nothing wrong with that; we *are* speaking about maintaining "freedom," after all. The anti-gun factions have managed, on several occasions, to play on the diverse interests of firearms enthusiasts. We, in falling into this trap, fail to support one-another as a group and react only when our particular interest seems threatened. This is a failure we MUST curtail. Anyone who supports *any* interest in firearms should support all who have interest in firearms, regardless of the particular facet of shooting, collecting, hunting, etc. If we, as a group, can be "picked off, piecemeal" we will recognize our failings too late. Rick Jennings NRA Endowment member (and member of a buncha other shootin’ organizations) — "In framing a government…you must, first, enable the government to control the governed and, in the next place, oblige it to control itself." — James Madison
Response:
Steve Ashe continues the debate over the NRA with: "Bottom line Mr. Dodd, I am WAY more pro-RKBA than you are. That is my main objection to NRAs methodology. They aren’t pro-RKBA enough to suit me." Well, I will submit that I am more "right to keep and bear arms" than Mr. Ashe is because I have *done* more. Among my recent accomplishments: *teaching four young people (two boys, two girls) how to shoot and equipping them with the right mindset. Two of these kids were not mine. Giving them each an appropriate firearm on "graduation". *raising enough money to defeat an anti-gun federal politician. The new guy calls me for views. *getting numerous pro-gun letters published in the local anti-gun fish wrap (only daily paper in a city of over 1 million). The NRA on a much larger scale can list many such. It is effective. The antis and their minions in the press demonize the NRA because the NRA is so effective. They do not do so for the marginal groups, because the marginal groups are just that. If they were getting the job done, they would get the same treatment that the NRA gets. I admit that I cannot comprehend how "being more RKBA than the NRA" is a valid reason for not joining. Kind of like being holier than Jesus keeps you from joining the church. To close: for you folks who are not NRA members, please join and help the organization which is *doing* something about keeping our rights to arms and our hunting…jim dodd San Diego
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->( much snipped) >Bottom line Mr. Dodd, I am WAY more pro-RKBA than you are. That is my >main objection to NRAs methodology. They aren’t pro-RKBA enough to suit >me. >(snip more, long, wandering verbiage) >to reiterate: > No other pro-gun group has done as much as NRA. How many times do I have >to say it? NRA is a fine organization that has done tremendous things for >gun-owners. Eddie Eagle, the Olympic shooting team, hunter safety, >instructor certification, books on hunting, etc, etfc. NRA has >continually benefitted gun-owners, and, IF you support their politics, >you cannot finds a better deal than $35 a year for membership in the >strongest and most visible pro-gun organization in the world. (not to >mention a couple of great magazines) > BUT, if you don’t join NRA, whatever the reason, even some lame excuse >about junk mail, PLEASE join some pro-RKBA organization. ANY pro-RKBA >organization. We need you.
Don, I am glad that you advocate the NRA for many people, even if they/we are pansies in your estimation. I would also agree that if you don’t like the NRA, another org may be right for you. OK. So now you’ve been duly noted as a staunch defender of the RKBA, as well as someone astute enough to pierce the veil of NRA incompetence and inadequate policies Now I presume that since you have made your point, there remains no reason for you to continue beating this dead horse? joe
Response:
>Don Ashe writes: >"Do you want us to fight beside you, or sit back and watch you lose?" >Summary of my response to Mr. Ashe and his fellow travelers: with friends >like you sir, we don’t need enemies.
….Snipped an absolutely great post, only in the interest of brevity…. >The NRA is defined by its enemies. >jim dodd >22 year military veteran of SE & SW Asia and other fun places, able to >detect a Commie or fellow traveler with a single sniff.
I have been observing Mr. Ash’s posts with high suspicion and mounting frustration for some time now, and still don’t have any idea what his objections to the "leadership of the NRA" are. Thank you Mr. Dodd, for such an eloquent rebuttal! Keep it up! Jim Wahl
Response:
>Summary of my response to Mr. Ashe and his fellow travelers: with friends >like you sir, we don’t need enemies.
While certainly a nice, rude comeback, I honestly doubt your sincerity in this. Would you rather argue over gun policy with GOA, or Sarah Brady? >From my point of view, those who attack the NRA and make derogatory >comments about the organization (as opposed to comments on what >individuals in the organization have done), are ARFs or anti-gunners or >fellow travelers masquerading as pro-gun, pro-hunting people.
Would you like to point out to me where I have made derogatory remarks about NRA? I have said REPEATEDLY that NRA is a fine organization, and you should join them IF you support their agenda. Is that derogatory? I have stated several times that they have done extremely wonderful things for gun-owners, and that I only disagree with NRAs political tactics. I think NRA compromises too quickly, and gives up too much ground to the antis. To you that means I am an ARF or an anti-gunner. Then I assume you would include Larry Pratt, Aaron Zelman, and others as anti-gun as well, right? Bottom line Mr. Dodd, I am WAY more pro-RKBA than you are. That is my main objection to NRAs methodology. They aren’t pro-RKBA enough to suit me. > If you, Mr. >Ashe , don’t want to join the NRA, then do so *quietly*. Make your choice, >and zip your lip.
So you support RKBA, but not free speech, right? >Your current practice of objecting to the NRA for unspecified mysterious >reasons known only to you, casts discredit on the organization and >supports its enemies.
Perhaps my attempts to keep from making any derogatory remarks about NRA’s political agenda has you confused. You are apparently a little touchy on the subject. It’s a neat verbal trap you’ve laid though. If I DON’T specify my objections, then I am discrediting the organization and supporting it’s enemy. If I DO specify my objections, then I am directly attacking NRA. Did you work in psy-ops? My objection to NRA politics isn’t relevant, but is a great way for you to take the focus off of my point. What is important is that I , and many other gun owners, do not support NRA’s political strategy, and will not join. My reasons don’t matter, since you are not going to agree with them, anyway. The only thing that matters is that we can, and do, participate in fighting the encroachments on our RKBA. If you don’t welcome us to fight alongside you, well, maybe our feelings will be hurt, but we certainly aren’t going to just give up fighting for our rights. > Your appeal to join the smaller organizations >instead of the NRA is an attack on the NRA and an attempt to fragment the >pro-gun, pro hunting forces.
Go back and show me where I’ve attacked the NRA, or where I’ve urged anyone not to join. YOU are the one urging anyone who doesn’t want to do things your way to "zip your lip". You are refusing the support of pro-gun, pro-hunting americans, simply because they don’t like your chosen organization’s politics. > You sir, for all your protestations are an >anti-gunner. When you walk lke a duck, and quack like a duck, you are a >damned duck.
You probably need a refresher. I suggest a quick look at: http://www.npsc.nbs.gov/resource/tools/duckdist/duckdist.htm >The NRA now has gained United Nations recognition as a Non Governmental >Organization, and can appear before it officially. What other pro-gun pro >hunting group has achieved that?
No other pro-gun group has done as much as NRA. How many times do I have to say it? NRA is a fine organization that has done tremendous things for gun-owners. Eddie Eagle, the Olympic shooting team, hunter safety, instructor certification, books on hunting, etc, etfc. NRA has continually benefitted gun-owners, and, IF you support their politics, you cannot finds a better deal than $35 a year for membership in the strongest and most visible pro-gun organization in the world. (not to mention a couple of great magazines) BUT, if you don’t join NRA, whatever the reason, even some lame excuse about junk mail, PLEASE join some pro-RKBA organization. ANY pro-RKBA organization. We need you. >Gun Owners of America in the person of its leader Larry Pratt got kicked >off the Dole Campaign for ties to militias (OK in my book) and skinheads >(not OK). CCRKBA sued the City of LA over CCWs, and maybe one new license >has been issued. It doesn’t matter what these folks have on their >homepages, it is what they have accomplished.
Which you are apparently unaware of… These people are out there fighting for our gun rights every single day. Perhaps they don’t have the pull of NRA, or the membership, but you do a grave insult to their efforts by dismissing them so off-handedly. What has Jim Dodd done for RKBA, as compared to Aaron Zelman or Larry Pratt? Who was it that Bob Dole felt hounded by when he single-handedly revived a dead Brady Bill, after all the other valiant pro-RKBA reps went home for the holidays? "I know the Gun Owners of America, another group, have a little different view. They are blaming me for the Brady bill that passed because I sat there with the majority leader and everybody else had gone home, and we made an arrangement. We let that bill pass. I was picketed, and they called me a traitor, and everything else . . . because that happened." – Congressional Record, August 23, 1994, p. S 12363. > Also, all of these small groups are run by one individual or perhaps a >small group. The NRA has an elected Board of Directors, which is >responsive to members.
That’s fine, as long as you support the tyranny of that particular majority. I don’t. <snip> >This is a crock. With 75 members on the Board, NRA has remarkable >diversity of opinion. Plus we members get to vote for these people. It >looks like the Mr. Ashe objection to the NRA is that he doesn’t get his >way. I don’t get my way all the time either, but I don’t go to the >cloakroom and pout. Well, OK, not since 2nd grade anyhow 
Nice try, but again, just a personal attack with no substance. If my points are too much for you I can break them down for you…. My objection to the NRA is it’s politics. Why should I join the NRA, where the members are happy with their chosen strategy, then fight to get them to use MY strategy, when there is another pro-RKBA organization(or 2, or more…) that ALREADY has the same philosophy I do? Why waste all my energy fighting other gun-owners over political strategy, instead of the real enemy? >In my last post I said: "If we had 30 million NRA members, this would be >very much different." >To which Mr. Ashe replies: "But you don’t. And one of the many reasons is >that NRA is not for everyone. Some gun owners don’t like it. You can >question their reasons all day long. You can claim their views are >invalid. But the bottom line is that some of us will not give NRA our >support." >We don’t have 30 million members thanks in part to people like you.
The NRA cannot attract 30 million members, even in this age of blatant anti-gun campaigning, and somehow this is my fault? That’s funny! What NRA is doing is apparently not attracting enough members. If they want more members, I would imagine they need to change something. It certainly has NOTHING whatsoever to do with my personal view of their political strategy. But, hey, thanks for the compliment! > OK, so >don’t support the only organization that is effectively protecting your >right to even have a gun.
Again with the insults to the hard working pro-RKBA organizations out their fighting for our rights. Have you no shame? NRA is doing a damn fine job, especially with this recent NGO status in th UN – A brilliant victory for all pro-RKBA people world-wide. But this in NO WAY translates into them being the ONLY effective pro-RKBA organization. > But shut-up while you don’t support it. Your >shouting that the NRA is bad, bad, bad,
You’re too much! I am shouting " If you don’t like NRA, don’t give up, join some other organization." Somehow this leads you to the conclusion that I am attacking NRA? We are under a determined, blatant attack by people who want to eliminate ALL private firearms ownership worldwide. They have enlisted gullible, but well-meaning fence-sitters, political power-grabbers, liars, cheats, draft-dodgers, you name it. We cannot afford to exclude ANY pro-RKBA people from our side. We need all pro-RKBA people to join some type of pro-RKBA organization and fight these people wherever they threaten our rights. We cannot afford to exlclude anyone simply because they don’t like something, real or imagined, about NRA. >and your refusal to go away >quietly only expose you for the anti-gunner you are.
That’s funny! I will gladly put my RKBA position against your RKBA position ANY DAY. I am WAY more pro-RKBA than you. > If you continue to >insist that your pristine views are above the common fray, then I suggest >that you join your pals in HCI where ever they hang out.
Now this is really funny! Is this one of your tools for recruiting new NRA members? Accuse them of being antis until they join? >The NRA is defined by its enemies.
I am no enemy of the NRA. On the contrary, as I have said over and over, they do a great job. I just don’t like their politics. >jim dodd >22 year military veteran of SE & SW Asia and other fun places, able to >detect a Commie or fellow traveler with a single sniff.
I’ll show you MY dd-214 if you’ll show me YOURS. -Don Also a veteran (USN), I can neither confirm nor deny my presence in that area…. to reiterate: No other pro-gun group has done as much as NRA. How many times do I have to say it? NRA is a fine organization that has done … read more »
Response:
Don Ashe writes:
"Do you want us to fight beside you, or sit back and watch you lose?" Summary of my response to Mr. Ashe and his fellow travelers: with friends like you sir, we don’t need enemies. >From my point of view, those who attack the NRA and make derogatory
comments about the organization (as opposed to comments on what individuals in the organization have done), are ARFs or anti-gunners or fellow travelers masquerading as pro-gun, pro-hunting people. If you, Mr. Ashe , don’t want to join the NRA, then do so *quietly*. Make your choice, and zip your lip. Your current practice of objecting to the NRA for unspecified mysterious reasons known only to you, casts discredit on the organization and supports its enemies. Your appeal to join the smaller organizations instead of the NRA is an attack on the NRA and an attempt to fragment the pro-gun, pro hunting forces. You sir, for all your protestations are an anti-gunner. When you walk lke a duck, and quack like a duck, you are a damned duck. The NRA now has gained United Nations recognition as a Non Governmental Organization, and can appear before it officially. What other pro-gun pro hunting group has achieved that? What have the smaller groups done? Gun Owners of America in the person of its leader Larry Pratt got kicked off the Dole Campaign for ties to militias (OK in my book) and skinheads (not OK). CCRKBA sued the City of LA over CCWs, and maybe one new license has been issued. It doesn’t matter what these folks have on their homepages, it is what they have accomplished. Also, all of these small groups are run by one individual or perhaps a small group. The NRA has an elected Board of Directors, which is responsive to members. Mr. Ashe also writes:
"No single organization can represent all of the gun-owners in this diverse nation. Nor should it try to. My point of view clashes with NRA leadership. Either I won’t get my way, or they won’t get theirs." This is a crock. With 75 members on the Board, NRA has remarkable diversity of opinion. Plus we members get to vote for these people. It looks like the Mr. Ashe objection to the NRA is that he doesn’t get his way. I don’t get my way all the time either, but I don’t go to the cloakroom and pout. Well, OK, not since 2nd grade anyhow In my last post I said: "If we had 30 million NRA members, this would be very much different." To which Mr. Ashe replies: "But you don’t. And one of the many reasons is that NRA is not for everyone. Some gun owners don’t like it. You can question their reasons all day long. You can claim their views are invalid. But the bottom line is that some of us will not give NRA our support." We don’t have 30 million members thanks in part to people like you. OK, so don’t support the only organization that is effectively protecting your right to even have a gun. But shut-up while you don’t support it. Your shouting that the NRA is bad, bad, bad, and your refusal to go away quietly only expose you for the anti-gunner you are. If you continue to insist that your pristine views are above the common fray, then I suggest that you join your pals in HCI where ever they hang out. The NRA is defined by its enemies. jim dodd 22 year military veteran of SE & SW Asia and other fun places, able to detect a Commie or fellow traveler with a single sniff.
