The Great Snatch

Question:

>     22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be > saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. >     23: Terror In Lonely Places – Desert Mysteries

By Scott Corrales

Iraqis Furious Over Repeated U.S. Attacks On Mosques

Question:

> Iraqis Furious Over Repeated U.S. Attacks On Mosques

"After being frisked and insulted by U.S. soldiers, Thamil said what most made him angry that they desecrated the holy place with their boots." Now that’s funny.

Response:

Humiliation, humiliation, humiliation, humiliation, humiliation….the west is getting sick of Muslim humiliation…if a daisy cutter two had been dropped on a mosque that harbored terrorists/weapons ages ago, the Islamic ruse of using "holy" places for tactical ends (never mind recruitment of terrorists) might have caused them to think twice long ago.  Islamic barbarity in the world today is the biggest humiliation for the world body at large–maybe a few of the 1.2 million Muslims in the world can think about that…they even butcher their own tribe…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Iraqis Furious Over Repeated U.S. Attacks On Mosques > By Dahr Jamail, IOL Correspondent > BAGHDAD, May 17 (IslamOnline.net) – Away from the policies of pre-dawn > terrifying sweeps, systematic and abhorrent prisoner abuse and > "imprecise" bombings of civilian Iraqi homes, the U.S. occupation > troops have recently embarked on a policy of storming and attacking > mosques, making Iraqis even more bewildered and angry. > Abu Hanifa mosque in Baghdad was the last to witness a U.S. ’sweep’ > with soldiers desecrating the holy place with their boots and throwing > copies of the Noble Qur’an, paying no heed whatsoever to the feelings > of the people they came to "liberate". > "They say they are searching for a killer in the mosque," said Hassam > Aziz Abdul, while he glared at soldiers walking dogs into the mosque. > "But they want to destroy every holy place in my country." > On Sunday, May 16, U.S. soldiers sealed off the mosque in the > Al-Adhamiya district of Baghdad under the pretext of hunting down > "militants" and ammunition caches. > Dogs were brought into the courtyard of the mosque to the fury of the > area’s residents. > Humiliation > Ra’ad Hussam Thamil, a 58 year-old man who was praying inside the > mosque when the soldiers stormed it, said the crowd of 200 people was > held at gunpoint for nearly one hour. > After being frisked and insulted by U.S. soldiers, Thamil said what > most made him angry that they desecrated the holy place with their > boots. > Following that raid, Kassem, a 54 year-old grandfather who works as > one of the guards at the mosque, said a U.S. soldier hit him in the > forehead with the butt of an M-16 rifle. > "When I fell to the ground they kicked me. They came to humiliate the > people of Islam. Why else? We have no guns here, no mujahedeen > [fighters]. They want to destroy the Islamic religion." > This is the fourth time Abu Hanifa Mosque has been raided by the > U.S.-led occupation forces since the invasion of the oil-rich country > on March 20, 2003 . The previous raid of the mosque occurred on April > 11. > On April 7, the U.S. occupation military admitted that a Cobra > helicopter slammed a Hell Fire missile and a laser-guided precision > bomb into Abdulaziz Al-Samarai mosque in the restive town of Fallujah, > killing up to 40 people. > ‘Making Things Worse’ > Several preachers in Friday sermons agreed that the Americans did not > pay any attention to the sanctity of mosques. > "What they are doing by entering our mosque and causing destruction is > making things even worse than before," said Imam Muad Al-Adhamy. > The occupation troops withdrew from the mosque after one hour, without > having found weapons or any suspects. But they left the faithful with > deep psychological scars. > Muslim Inaction > Abu Hanifa mosque, according to Professor Adnan Mohammed Salman > Al-Dulainy at the Diwan Wakfa Sunni College in Baghdad , is the > primary Sunni mosque in the area. > "It is also one the most important Sunni mosques in Iraq , as well as > one of the most important in all of the Middle East ," Dulainy told > IOL. > "I call on all of the Arab and Muslim leaders throughout the world to > condemn these actions, and to show their frustration about these > despicable acts," he stated firmly from a microphone inside the mosque > following the U.S. desecration. > "This is a humiliation to Muslims across the world." > Dulainy said he frequently urged the U.S. military occupation in > Baghdad not to attack mosques. > "I have been completely open and clear with the Americans about how > they should behave in our holy places, yet they don’t change how they > treat our mosques," he told IOL. > "This has increased the instability in Iraq ," he stated. "It has > planted hatred in peoples’ hearts towards the Americans." > The raid at Abu Hanifa, coupled with damage suffered during the raid > in April 2004 when gates were smashed open by U.S. tanks, adds to the > outrage of Iraqi Shiites after the partial damage to the dome of Imam > Ali Mosque in An-Najaf. > When contacted by IOL, the occupation’s press information center > declined to comment on the raids. > http://islamonline.net

Response:

Iraqis Furious Over Repeated U.S. Attacks On Mosques By Dahr Jamail, IOL Correspondent   BAGHDAD, May 17 (IslamOnline.net)

A Legacy of Meddling, Betrayal

Question:

> Papers of Sir Mark Sykes Outline > A Legacy of Meddling, Betrayal

Riddle: What’s the difference between today’s Muslim nations and the Third Reich? Answer: 60 years. Yggdrasil

Response:

Papers of Sir Mark Sykes Outline A Legacy of Meddling, Betrayal By STEPHEN J. GLAIN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL HULL, England — The Mideast conflict has produced its share of ghosts, from Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser to Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. If they could communicate with the temporal world, the ghost with the most to say might be the little-known midwife to the modern Middle East, Sir Mark Sykes. To understand why, you have to journey three hours by train from London to this dreary, tapped-out city and take a 15-minute bus ride to the University of Hull, custodian to Sir Mark’s papers. After a day sifting through the trove of memos and letters, the message from the past seems clear: In fashioning his policy for a region more explosive than it has been in years, President George W. Bush will have to cope with a legacy of colonial meddling and betrayal. Sir Mark was a British civil servant who, together with a French diplomat named Francois Picot, secretly carved up what used to be called the Levant into an assortment of monarchies, mandates and emirates. The Sykes-Picot agreement, hatched in smoke-filled salons in Paris, London and Cairo, enshrined Anglo-French imperialist ambitions at the end of World War I. Syria and Lebanon were tucked into the French orbit, while Britain claimed Jordan, Iraq, the Gulf states and the Palestinian Mandate — what is now Israel and the Palestinian Authority. When news of the Sykes-Picot agreement leaked out in late 1917, it was condemned by the Arabs as a violation of Anglo-French pledges for postwar independence. "The promises to the Arabs was a dead paper," wrote T.E. Lawrence in his memoirs. Outrage in the decades following the agreement fueled a pan-Arab uprising that ousted regimes close to the West, sometimes violently. Not much has changed, except that Washington has replaced London and Paris as the target of Arab enmity. Anti-American sentiment, expressed most brutally by October’s bombing of the U.S.S. Cole, is at its highest level in years. Many Arabs see the continued expansion of Jewish settlements and Israel’s sometimes fatal reprisals against stone-throwing Arab youths in the West Bank and Gaza as acts aided and abetted by a U.S. Congress bought and paid for by a Jewish lobby in Washington. Egypt and Jordan, the only Arab regimes formally at peace with Israel, are walking a perilous course between their close association with the U.S. and an Arab street demanding Israeli and, increasingly, American blood. Reconciling Arab antipathy with a commitment to Israel will be a primary challenge for Mr. Bush’s Middle East team, just as it was in the time of Sykes and Picot. Then, as now, Western involvement in the Middle East was often perceived as having a pro-Zionist bias that, in the Mideast, eroded Western prestige and threatened the integrity of pro-West regimes. No one grappled with the dilemma now facing the Bush team more gamely than Mark Sykes, a contemporary of Lawrence and an Arabist in Kipling’s fashion. Unlike Picot, a veteran diplomat who believed subject peoples should remain under the imperial thumb, Sir Mark defended both Arab nationalism and Zionism. He wrote enthusiastically of how the agreement he helped forge would pave the way for a peaceful and productive "Arab-Jewish combine." In a memo dated July 18, 1917, he decried the "eight centuries of slavery" the Arabs endured under the Ottoman Turks and proclaimed Britain’s post-war policies to be "the liberation of oppressed peoples," both Arab and Jew. As a young man, Sir Mark traveled frequently to the Middle East. A book of the Sykes family history includes a photograph of young Mark on one of his travels. He wears a pith helmet, tweed hunting jacket, riding boots and pinks, and cradles in his arm a large-bore hunting rifle. He is accompanied by Isa, his Bedouin guide, a cook, a waiter, four muleteers and a groom, seven Syrian mules, two horses and a Kurdish sheepdog. Through such austerity was British Orientalism then informed. When war broke out, the 34-year-old Sir Mark was plucked from Parliament and assigned as an Arab expert to the War Office. Reading the Sykes archive, a compendium of typed and hand-written memos, is like listening to the black-box recording of a doomed airliner. Yellowed and musty, the memos weave a cautionary tale of the limits — and dangers — of Great Power influence in the Middle East. Memos written in the early phase of the war reveal a cheery vision of Arab-Jewish harmony free of foreign meddling. In a 1915 memorandum, Sir Mark writes of an opportunity to create a Middle East entente "with no spheres of influence … that must differ strategically and politically from anything that has existed in the past." It is a statement that might not seem out of place at a signing ceremony on the White House lawn. Sir Mark’s optimism is parried by Gilbert Clayton, Britain’s chief representative in Cairo. In a letter to Sykes dated Dec. 15, 1917, he responds prophetically to Sir Mark’s support for a Jewish homeland and the prospects for its peaceful co-existence with Muslim and Christian Arabs. "We will try it," he writes, "but it must be done very cautiously and, honestly, I see no great chance of any real success. It is an attempt to change in a few weeks the traditional sentiment of centuries." Clayton also warns of an Arab backlash in response to Britain’s perceived pro-Zionist bias. "We have to consider whether the situation demands out-and-out support of Zionism at the risk of alienating the Arabs," he writes. "By pushing them as hard as we appear to be doing, we are risking the possibility of Arab unity becoming something like an accomplished fact and being ranged against us." (In the margins of the letter, an unidentified hand notes, "This happened.") In a handwritten postscript, Clayton reiterates, "I wish to point out clearly the dangers and difficulties which exist here." Even pro-Zionists in the British establishment warned that London’s mandate in what was then Palestine would become a quagmire. "We are not going to get anything out of it," writes Lord Robert Cecil in a 1919 memo. "Whoever goes there will have a poor time." Sir Mark never lived to see the West’s Mideast proxies consumed in an anti-Western rage; he died in 1919 at the age of 39. His papers convey a profound reluctance on the part of British foreign officers to get tangled up in the region. Yet hardball geopolitics left them no choice; the Levant was an important corner of the Great Game between East and West for control of Central Asia and remained so right through the Cold War, when the U.S. used its relationship with Israel to prevent Soviet clients Syria and Iraq from menacing Turkey and the Bosporus, the gullet of the Mediterranean. Today, the Soviet Union is no more, the Bosporus is secure, and the political landscape of the Middle East is little like the one that Sir Mark knew, or thought he knew. But the feud between Israel and its Arab neighbors — sometimes cold, now quite hot — goes on, stoked by the embers of another age.

Response:

VERY OT Democrat hypocrisy on Kerry's alleged affair

Question:

I wish that the political threads would not go on, however it seems like many people wish to ebter into a discussion.  SO the title of the post is very obvious that you should go elsewhere is you do not wish to discuss this issue. YOU MAY JUMP TO THE NEWSCLIP AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, THE REST OF THIS IS MY POLITICAL RANT, NO OFFENSE> Please read the excert I have pasted below.  While Clinton is/was as polarizing an individual as Bush is, I think intelligent debate is healthy.  However, it seems many individuals can’t seem to debate rationally. I think Clinton was a lame duck president in his 8 years in office. This means he sat in the chair, and let the world unfold around him. I also believe Clinton is a wonderful politician, and has much charisma.  On a side note, Hitler had much charisma too (I am not saying Clinton was evil like that, though). When Clinton took office, it was a fact that the economy was starting to recover, and that the internet was becoming an economic force. Therefore the economy did better, spurned on by tax cuts that Congress twisted Clinton’s arm for, and got. During the 8 years that Clinton was in office, the economy hummed along with or without help from Clinton.  At the end of his 8 years, the economy started into a recession, this is fact.  Under Clinton there was no oversight over the large corporations of the US, and the stock market was over-valued.  Clinton didn’t even start the Palestinian/Isreal peace talks….the peace process began under Bush Sr.  The corporate scandals of today took many years to formulate…again under Clinton’s watch. Clinton was therefore, lucky.  The economy is cyclical, and those variable he should have controlled he did not…but he was fortunate enough to leave office before the bombs he figuratively built, exploded. Clinton sought to dilute US power in the rest of the world, he did not want the US to be a Super-power.  The result was that France, and Germany really, really liked us!  Old-Europe will always begrudge what America has accomplished, and delight in any equalization in power between the US and the rest of the world. In Clinton’s 8 years terrorist and Islamic extremism grew.  This extremism did not suddenly appear in a few years under Bush.  We all know that a rock band is difficult enough to form, let alone, a terrorist network!  Thereore, even though the world seemed to like us more under Clinton…the hatred still existed.  Again, this hatred is against the way our culture is, pure and simple. So about Bush:  He is not a good politician like CLinton, nor is he as charismatic.  Clinton is a good BS-er…he wold make a good salesmen, and he probably copuld (and did!) talk many women into bed. Bush stutters, he is not a smooth talker.  However, he does what he thinks is right for the country and not just himself. These problems in the world today did not just happen overnight.  The economy was in recession when Bush came into office.  The corporate scandals finally erupted, the market was down due to the internet bubble bursting.  Bin Laden had all his networks already in place, and Saddamm had, had NO U.N. inspectors since Clinton/UN allowed IRAQ to go unsupervised. Bush came into office in a fluky election.  The news media reported on the winner of Florida BEFORE the northern third had even voted, prompting this very conservative section of florida to have on of the worst voter-turnouts ever, because everyone their vote didn’t matter. The news media really screwed up the florida election results, as well as the "popular vote."  No one will ever know whether Bush cold have won the "popular vote." Also, remember that the Election Machines were messed up for years under Gov. Chiles (D), before Jeb Bush got to the state.  Also, remember that the ballots that were "confusing" were designed by the Democrats—so if anyone was "disenfranchised" blame the democrats. Bush was elected under the laws of US, period.  When elections go bad, there is a hierarchy of the way things should go.  This process went along, and Bush won. The recounts have shown mixed results, but it appears Bush would have won all the recounts, hanging chads, or not!  Remember all the military ballots that the Democrats wished to throw out, and that they wanted to recount heavily Democratic districts supervised by Democrats doing the recounts! As a side note….did anyone ever realize that on the Florida ballot there was a candidate up for the Presidential Election named Monica Moorehead?  Very funny name given Clinton’s mess onthe blue dress! Why did Bush go into Iraq afterall….Oil?  Not. I think Bush would have had a much easier time to sit back and let IRAQ simmer and finally boil over years in the future.  He took extreme political risk by going into IRAQ.  We get most of ouor oil from South America anyway, BTW. You may say, we should have gotten Saddam the first time in ‘91. Well, rememeber that the UN and the Coalition had stated goals of ONLY removing Saddam. This time around, remember that there were 17 some resolutions to the UN about IRAQ.  Also remember that Clinton took no flap for the war in Bosnia…does everyone remember that war??  Clinton did that war to remove a dictator…and Milosevich had no history of WMD’s!! So let’s talk about WMD’s.  Let’s say you are told a bar will have a PA for your next gig, so you show up with only your DI box, and no rig. Guess what, the bar owner was wrong, or the PA broke the night before. So is it your fault you did not bring your rig?? The intelligence on IRAQ was messed up a bit.  The intelligence on Pearl Harbor was also shown to be messed up.  We actually had intelligence that we were to be bombed by Japan, and did nothing. IRAQ HAD WMD’s this is a fact.  IRAQ was trying to aquire nuclear weapons, this is a fact as shown by David Kaye.  IRAQ would have continued it’s search for WMD’s.  The fact is, there may still be WMD’s there, they may have been moved to Syria right before the war, no one knows. Does everyone know that there was an old fuselage of a Boeing 707 in Northern IRAQ used for terrorist training?  Does everyone realize that there were chemical weapon suits found in the IRAQI bunkers?  Does everyone realize that IRAQ had buried many weapon systems in the sand, to be used later?  It is a fact that entire MIG fighters were buried under sand, to be used later! How many nuts have you run across in your yard buried by Squirrels over the year?  Hmmm, think about it. I welcome any responses, Good Day…and please keep the conversation going without name-calling, The Republican Dude In an excerpt from drudgereport.com: NEWSWEEK’s Jonathan Alter defended the aggressive adultery rumor line-of-questioning of the first President Bush on ABC’s NIGHTLINE on August 12, 1992, on a broadcast titled: "The Media Charges George Bush With Adultery." "In this situation, the Oval Office isn’t a temple," Alter explained. "The President is a candidate and he has to be asked tough, often distasteful, but nonetheless important kinds of questions." UPI’s Helen Thomas also defended the Bush affair reportage: "Some people might have felt that it wasn’t appropriate. But when you have the President there, I think it’s very legitimate to ask him any question." CUT TO 2004: NEWSWEEK’S Alter blasted any and all coverage of the Kerry infidelity probe last week on a New York City talkradio outlet — calling the investigation "sleazy." The media outrage over an erupting story of possible infidelity of a presidential candidate — 2004 — peaked with Joe Conason’s cover story in SALON late last week ["There he goes again! Matt Drudge and the GOP smear machine are back in the Democrats' pants"] Conason lamented: "But the kind of proof usually required by national news organizations isn’t what Drudge needs in order to put innuendo into circulation." But is this really the same Joe Conason who in the Summer of 1992 wrote a magazine cover story entitled "1,000 REASONS NOT TO VOTE FOR GEORGE BUSH?" Consaon’s reason #1: "He cheats on his wife." The rumor of President Bush having an affair was never proved by the media. The developing Kerry drama may or may not join it on the shelf.

Response:

Sorry, there’s far too much to address in this post to even bother IMO. Brad

Response:

Sounds like a well thought out post. I agreed with you 100%.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I wish that the political threads would not go on, however it seems > like many people wish to ebter into a discussion.  SO the title of the > post is very obvious that you should go elsewhere is you do not wish > to discuss this issue. > YOU MAY JUMP TO THE NEWSCLIP AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, THE REST OF > THIS IS MY POLITICAL RANT, NO OFFENSE> > Please read the excert I have pasted below.  While Clinton is/was as > polarizing an individual as Bush is, I think intelligent debate is > healthy.  However, it seems many individuals can’t seem to debate > rationally. > I think Clinton was a lame duck president in his 8 years in office. > This means he sat in the chair, and let the world unfold around him. > I also believe Clinton is a wonderful politician, and has much > charisma.  On a side note, Hitler had much charisma too (I am not > saying Clinton was evil like that, though). > When Clinton took office, it was a fact that the economy was starting > to recover, and that the internet was becoming an economic force. > Therefore the economy did better, spurned on by tax cuts that Congress > twisted Clinton’s arm for, and got. > During the 8 years that Clinton was in office, the economy hummed > along with or without help from Clinton.  At the end of his 8 years, > the economy started into a recession, this is fact.  Under Clinton > there was no oversight over the large corporations of the US, and the > stock market was over-valued.  Clinton didn’t even start the > Palestinian/Isreal peace talks….the peace process began under Bush > Sr.  The corporate scandals of today took many years to > formulate…again under Clinton’s watch. > Clinton was therefore, lucky.  The economy is cyclical, and those > variable he should have controlled he did not…but he was fortunate > enough to leave office before the bombs he figuratively built, > exploded. > Clinton sought to dilute US power in the rest of the world, he did not > want the US to be a Super-power.  The result was that France, and > Germany really, really liked us!  Old-Europe will always begrudge what > America has accomplished, and delight in any equalization in power > between the US and the rest of the world. > In Clinton’s 8 years terrorist and Islamic extremism grew.  This > extremism did not suddenly appear in a few years under Bush.  We all > know that a rock band is difficult enough to form, let alone, a > terrorist network!  Thereore, even though the world seemed to like us > more under Clinton…the hatred still existed.  Again, this hatred is > against the way our culture is, pure and simple. > So about Bush:  He is not a good politician like CLinton, nor is he as > charismatic.  Clinton is a good BS-er…he wold make a good salesmen, > and he probably copuld (and did!) talk many women into bed. > Bush stutters, he is not a smooth talker.  However, he does what he > thinks is right for the country and not just himself. > These problems in the world today did not just happen overnight.  The > economy was in recession when Bush came into office.  The corporate > scandals finally erupted, the market was down due to the internet > bubble bursting.  Bin Laden had all his networks already in place, and > Saddamm had, had NO U.N. inspectors since Clinton/UN allowed IRAQ to > go unsupervised. > Bush came into office in a fluky election.  The news media reported on > the winner of Florida BEFORE the northern third had even voted, > prompting this very conservative section of florida to have on of the > worst voter-turnouts ever, because everyone their vote didn’t matter. > The news media really screwed up the florida election results, as well > as the "popular vote."  No one will ever know whether Bush cold have > won the "popular vote." > Also, remember that the Election Machines were messed up for years > under Gov. Chiles (D), before Jeb Bush got to the state.  Also, > remember that the ballots that were "confusing" were designed by the > Democrats—so if anyone was "disenfranchised" blame the democrats. > Bush was elected under the laws of US, period.  When elections go bad, > there is a hierarchy of the way things should go.  This process went > along, and Bush won. > The recounts have shown mixed results, but it appears Bush would have > won all the recounts, hanging chads, or not!  Remember all the > military ballots that the Democrats wished to throw out, and that they > wanted to recount heavily Democratic districts supervised by Democrats > doing the recounts! > As a side note….did anyone ever realize that on the Florida ballot > there was a candidate up for the Presidential Election named Monica > Moorehead?  Very funny name given Clinton’s mess onthe blue dress! > Why did Bush go into Iraq afterall….Oil?  Not. > I think Bush would have had a much easier time to sit back and let > IRAQ simmer and finally boil over years in the future.  He took > extreme political risk by going into IRAQ.  We get most of ouor oil > from South America anyway, BTW. > You may say, we should have gotten Saddam the first time in ‘91. > Well, rememeber that the UN and the Coalition had stated goals of ONLY > removing Saddam. > This time around, remember that there were 17 some resolutions to the > UN about IRAQ.  Also remember that Clinton took no flap for the war in > Bosnia…does everyone remember that war??  Clinton did that war to > remove a dictator…and Milosevich had no history of WMD’s!! > So let’s talk about WMD’s.  Let’s say you are told a bar will have a > PA for your next gig, so you show up with only your DI box, and no > rig. > Guess what, the bar owner was wrong, or the PA broke the night before. > So is it your fault you did not bring your rig?? > The intelligence on IRAQ was messed up a bit.  The intelligence on > Pearl Harbor was also shown to be messed up.  We actually had > intelligence that we were to be bombed by Japan, and did nothing. > IRAQ HAD WMD’s this is a fact.  IRAQ was trying to aquire nuclear > weapons, this is a fact as shown by David Kaye.  IRAQ would have > continued it’s search for WMD’s.  The fact is, there may still be > WMD’s there, they may have been moved to Syria right before the war, > no one knows. > Does everyone know that there was an old fuselage of a Boeing 707 in > Northern IRAQ used for terrorist training?  Does everyone realize that > there were chemical weapon suits found in the IRAQI bunkers?  Does > everyone realize that IRAQ had buried many weapon systems in the sand, > to be used later?  It is a fact that entire MIG fighters were buried > under sand, to be used later! > How many nuts have you run across in your yard buried by Squirrels > over the year?  Hmmm, think about it. > I welcome any responses, > Good Day…and please keep the conversation going without > name-calling, > The Republican Dude > In an excerpt from drudgereport.com: > NEWSWEEK’s Jonathan Alter defended the aggressive adultery rumor > line-of-questioning of the first President Bush on ABC’s NIGHTLINE on > August 12, 1992, on a broadcast titled: "The Media Charges George Bush > With Adultery." > "In this situation, the Oval Office isn’t a temple," Alter explained. > "The President is a candidate and he has to be asked tough, often > distasteful, but nonetheless important kinds of questions." > UPI’s Helen Thomas also defended the Bush affair reportage: > "Some people might have felt that it wasn’t appropriate. But when you > have the President there, I think it’s very legitimate to ask him any > question." > CUT TO 2004: > NEWSWEEK’S Alter blasted any and all coverage of the Kerry infidelity > probe last week on a New York City talkradio outlet — calling the > investigation "sleazy." > The media outrage over an erupting story of possible infidelity of a > presidential candidate — 2004 — peaked with Joe Conason’s cover > story in SALON late last week ["There he goes again! Matt Drudge and > the GOP smear machine are back in the Democrats' pants"] > Conason lamented: > "But the kind of proof usually required by national news organizations > isn’t what Drudge needs in order to put innuendo into circulation." > But is this really the same Joe Conason who in the Summer of 1992 > wrote a magazine cover story entitled "1,000 REASONS NOT TO VOTE FOR > GEORGE BUSH?" > Consaon’s reason #1: > "He cheats on his wife." > The rumor of President Bush having an affair was never proved by the > media. > The developing Kerry drama may or may not join it on the shelf.

Response:

Great post. Thoughtful. Truthful.

Response:

> How many nuts have you run across in your yard buried by Squirrels > over the year?  Hmmm, think about it.

I don’t actually see any nuts but the holes are everywhere.  Little buggers are living in the attic.  I trapped them by squirting a whole can of expanding foam into the entry/exit hole.  Then they tore some big holes in the soffit screen.  I’ve got rat poison all over the place in the attic and the little *&%$#ers won’t die!!!!!! Bud

Response:

Hm, lessee…a rambling, stream-of-consciousness manifesto with not a single citation to back up his rantings? Yeah, I can see how you’d agree with that "100%" — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sounds like a well thought out post. I agreed with you 100%. > I wish that the political threads would not go on, however it seems > like many people wish to ebter into a discussion.  SO the title of the > post is very obvious that you should go elsewhere is you do not wish > to discuss this issue. > YOU MAY JUMP TO THE NEWSCLIP AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, THE REST OF > THIS IS MY POLITICAL RANT, NO OFFENSE> > Please read the excert I have pasted below.  While Clinton is/was as > polarizing an individual as Bush is, I think intelligent debate is > healthy.  However, it seems many individuals can’t seem to debate > rationally. > I think Clinton was a lame duck president in his 8 years in office. > This means he sat in the chair, and let the world unfold around him. > I also believe Clinton is a wonderful politician, and has much > charisma.  On a side note, Hitler had much charisma too (I am not > saying Clinton was evil like that, though). > When Clinton took office, it was a fact that the economy was starting > to recover, and that the internet was becoming an economic force. > Therefore the economy did better, spurned on by tax cuts that Congress > twisted Clinton’s arm for, and got. > During the 8 years that Clinton was in office, the economy hummed > along with or without help from Clinton.  At the end of his 8 years, > the economy started into a recession, this is fact.  Under Clinton > there was no oversight over the large corporations of the US, and the > stock market was over-valued.  Clinton didn’t even start the > Palestinian/Isreal peace talks….the peace process began under Bush > Sr.  The corporate scandals of today took many years to > formulate…again under Clinton’s watch. > Clinton was therefore, lucky.  The economy is cyclical, and those > variable he should have controlled he did not…but he was fortunate > enough to leave office before the bombs he figuratively built, > exploded. > Clinton sought to dilute US power in the rest of the world, he did not > want the US to be a Super-power.  The result was that France, and > Germany really, really liked us!  Old-Europe will always begrudge what > America has accomplished, and delight in any equalization in power > between the US and the rest of the world. > In Clinton’s 8 years terrorist and Islamic extremism grew.  This > extremism did not suddenly appear in a few years under Bush.  We all > know that a rock band is difficult enough to form, let alone, a > terrorist network!  Thereore, even though the world seemed to like us > more under Clinton…the hatred still existed.  Again, this hatred is > against the way our culture is, pure and simple. > So about Bush:  He is not a good politician like CLinton, nor is he as > charismatic.  Clinton is a good BS-er…he wold make a good salesmen, > and he probably copuld (and did!) talk many women into bed. > Bush stutters, he is not a smooth talker.  However, he does what he > thinks is right for the country and not just himself. > These problems in the world today did not just happen overnight.  The > economy was in recession when Bush came into office.  The corporate > scandals finally erupted, the market was down due to the internet > bubble bursting.  Bin Laden had all his networks already in place, and > Saddamm had, had NO U.N. inspectors since Clinton/UN allowed IRAQ to > go unsupervised. > Bush came into office in a fluky election.  The news media reported on > the winner of Florida BEFORE the northern third had even voted, > prompting this very conservative section of florida to have on of the > worst voter-turnouts ever, because everyone their vote didn’t matter. > The news media really screwed up the florida election results, as well > as the "popular vote."  No one will ever know whether Bush cold have > won the "popular vote." > Also, remember that the Election Machines were messed up for years > under Gov. Chiles (D), before Jeb Bush got to the state.  Also, > remember that the ballots that were "confusing" were designed by the > Democrats—so if anyone was "disenfranchised" blame the democrats. > Bush was elected under the laws of US, period.  When elections go bad, > there is a hierarchy of the way things should go.  This process went > along, and Bush won. > The recounts have shown mixed results, but it appears Bush would have > won all the recounts, hanging chads, or not!  Remember all the > military ballots that the Democrats wished to throw out, and that they > wanted to recount heavily Democratic districts supervised by Democrats > doing the recounts! > As a side note….did anyone ever realize that on the Florida ballot > there was a candidate up for the Presidential Election named Monica > Moorehead?  Very funny name given Clinton’s mess onthe blue dress! > Why did Bush go into Iraq afterall….Oil?  Not. > I think Bush would have had a much easier time to sit back and let > IRAQ simmer and finally boil over years in the future.  He took > extreme political risk by going into IRAQ.  We get most of ouor oil > from South America anyway, BTW. > You may say, we should have gotten Saddam the first time in ‘91. > Well, rememeber that the UN and the Coalition had stated goals of ONLY > removing Saddam. > This time around, remember that there were 17 some resolutions to the > UN about IRAQ.  Also remember that Clinton took no flap for the war in > Bosnia…does everyone remember that war??  Clinton did that war to > remove a dictator…and Milosevich had no history of WMD’s!! > So let’s talk about WMD’s.  Let’s say you are told a bar will have a > PA for your next gig, so you show up with only your DI box, and no > rig. > Guess what, the bar owner was wrong, or the PA broke the night before. > So is it your fault you did not bring your rig?? > The intelligence on IRAQ was messed up a bit.  The intelligence on > Pearl Harbor was also shown to be messed up.  We actually had > intelligence that we were to be bombed by Japan, and did nothing. > IRAQ HAD WMD’s this is a fact.  IRAQ was trying to aquire nuclear > weapons, this is a fact as shown by David Kaye.  IRAQ would have > continued it’s search for WMD’s.  The fact is, there may still be > WMD’s there, they may have been moved to Syria right before the war, > no one knows. > Does everyone know that there was an old fuselage of a Boeing 707 in > Northern IRAQ used for terrorist training?  Does everyone realize that > there were chemical weapon suits found in the IRAQI bunkers?  Does > everyone realize that IRAQ had buried many weapon systems in the sand, > to be used later?  It is a fact that entire MIG fighters were buried > under sand, to be used later! > How many nuts have you run across in your yard buried by Squirrels > over the year?  Hmmm, think about it. > I welcome any responses, > Good Day…and please keep the conversation going without > name-calling, > The Republican Dude > In an excerpt from drudgereport.com: > NEWSWEEK’s Jonathan Alter defended the aggressive adultery rumor > line-of-questioning of the first President Bush on ABC’s NIGHTLINE on > August 12, 1992, on a broadcast titled: "The Media Charges George Bush > With Adultery." > "In this situation, the Oval Office isn’t a temple," Alter explained. > "The President is a candidate and he has to be asked tough, often > distasteful, but nonetheless important kinds of questions." > UPI’s Helen Thomas also defended the Bush affair reportage: > "Some people might have felt that it wasn’t appropriate. But when you > have the President there, I think it’s very legitimate to ask him any > question." > CUT TO 2004: > NEWSWEEK’S Alter blasted any and all coverage of the Kerry infidelity > probe last week on a New York City talkradio outlet — calling the > investigation "sleazy." > The media outrage over an erupting story of possible infidelity of a > presidential candidate — 2004 — peaked with Joe Conason’s cover > story in SALON late last week ["There he goes again! Matt Drudge and > the GOP smear machine are back in the Democrats' pants"] > Conason lamented: > "But the kind of proof usually required by national news organizations > isn’t what Drudge needs in order to put innuendo into circulation." > But is this really the same Joe Conason who in the Summer of 1992 > wrote a magazine cover story entitled "1,000 REASONS NOT TO VOTE FOR > GEORGE BUSH?" > Consaon’s reason #1: > "He cheats on his wife." > The rumor of President Bush having an affair was never proved by the > media. > The developing Kerry drama may or may not join it on the shelf.

Response:

> I’ve got rat poison all over the place in the attic and >the little *&%$#ers won’t die!!!!!!

Well if they do, they will pay you back by doing it in a wall space. "BTDT". Stinko, baby. Suggest big Victor rat traps, baited with peanut butter. Collect trapee and trap with a plastic garbage bag, dispose. Gruesome, but the rat poison is not without issues. You are compelled to deal with this problem in spite of the cruelty involved because critters chew wire insulation (possums, too). Fire hazard, especially in older houses. They’ll also (for some reason) damage your AC ductwork. Our Austin house was surrounded by Pecan trees, just to say I’ve seen plenty of nuts (getting back on the OT). –TP

Response:

Get a cat. A big one. Skogatt (Norwegian Woods Cat) or Maine coon should do the trick. Those cats weigh in average 10 to 13 kilos (that would be 22 to 28 lbs). — Henry! "One of the four last guys that are wearing cowboy boots in France." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How many nuts have you run across in your yard buried by Squirrels > over the year?  Hmmm, think about it. > I don’t actually see any nuts but the holes are everywhere.  Little buggers > are living in the attic.  I trapped them by squirting a whole can of > expanding foam into the entry/exit hole.  Then they tore some big holes in > the soffit screen.  I’ve got rat poison all over the place in the attic and > the little *&%$#ers won’t die!!!!!! > Bud

Response:

LOL Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hm, lessee…a rambling, stream-of-consciousness manifesto with not a single >citation to back up his rantings? >Yeah, I can see how you’d agree with that "100%" >– >Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm >"Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — >George Orwell > Sounds like a well thought out post. I agreed with you 100%. > > I wish that the political threads would not go on, however it seems > > like many people wish to ebter into a discussion.  SO the title of the > > post is very obvious that you should go elsewhere is you do not wish > > to discuss this issue. > > YOU MAY JUMP TO THE NEWSCLIP AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, THE REST OF > > THIS IS MY POLITICAL RANT, NO OFFENSE> > > Please read the excert I have pasted below.  While Clinton is/was as > > polarizing an individual as Bush is, I think intelligent debate is > > healthy.  However, it seems many individuals can’t seem to debate > > rationally. > > I think Clinton was a lame duck president in his 8 years in office. > > This means he sat in the chair, and let the world unfold around him. > > I also believe Clinton is a wonderful politician, and has much > > charisma.  On a side note, Hitler had much charisma too (I am not > > saying Clinton was evil like that, though). > > When Clinton took office, it was a fact that the economy was starting > > to recover, and that the internet was becoming an economic force. > > Therefore the economy did better, spurned on by tax cuts that Congress > > twisted Clinton’s arm for, and got. > > During the 8 years that Clinton was in office, the economy hummed > > along with or without help from Clinton.  At the end of his 8 years, > > the economy started into a recession, this is fact.  Under Clinton > > there was no oversight over the large corporations of the US, and the > > stock market was over-valued.  Clinton didn’t even start the > > Palestinian/Isreal peace talks….the peace process began under Bush > > Sr.  The corporate scandals of today took many years to > > formulate…again under Clinton’s watch. > > Clinton was therefore, lucky.  The economy is cyclical, and those > > variable he should have controlled he did not…but he was fortunate > > enough to leave office before the bombs he figuratively built, > > exploded. > > Clinton sought to dilute US power in the rest of the world, he did not > > want the US to be a Super-power.  The result was that France, and > > Germany really, really liked us!  Old-Europe will always begrudge what > > America has accomplished, and delight in any equalization in power > > between the US and the rest of the world. > > In Clinton’s 8 years terrorist and Islamic extremism grew.  This > > extremism did not suddenly appear in a few years under Bush.  We all > > know that a rock band is difficult enough to form, let alone, a > > terrorist network!  Thereore, even though the world seemed to like us > > more under Clinton…the hatred still existed.  Again, this hatred is > > against the way our culture is, pure and simple. > > So about Bush:  He is not a good politician like CLinton, nor is he as > > charismatic.  Clinton is a good BS-er…he wold make a good salesmen, > > and he probably copuld (and did!) talk many women into bed. > > Bush stutters, he is not a smooth talker.  However, he does what he > > thinks is right for the country and not just himself. > > These problems in the world today did not just happen overnight.  The > > economy was in recession when Bush came into office.  The corporate > > scandals finally erupted, the market was down due to the internet > > bubble bursting.  Bin Laden had all his networks already in place, and > > Saddamm had, had NO U.N. inspectors since Clinton/UN allowed IRAQ to > > go unsupervised. > > Bush came into office in a fluky election.  The news media reported on > > the winner of Florida BEFORE the northern third had even voted, > > prompting this very conservative section of florida to have on of the > > worst voter-turnouts ever, because everyone their vote didn’t matter. > > The news media really screwed up the florida election results, as well > > as the "popular vote."  No one will ever know whether Bush cold have > > won the "popular vote." > > Also, remember that the Election Machines were messed up for years > > under Gov. Chiles (D), before Jeb Bush got to the state.  Also, > > remember that the ballots that were "confusing" were designed by the > > Democrats—so if anyone was "disenfranchised" blame the democrats. > > Bush was elected under the laws of US, period.  When elections go bad, > > there is a hierarchy of the way things should go.  This process went > > along, and Bush won. > > The recounts have shown mixed results, but it appears Bush would have > > won all the recounts, hanging chads, or not!  Remember all the > > military ballots that the Democrats wished to throw out, and that they > > wanted to recount heavily Democratic districts supervised by Democrats > > doing the recounts! > > As a side note….did anyone ever realize that on the Florida ballot > > there was a candidate up for the Presidential Election named Monica > > Moorehead?  Very funny name given Clinton’s mess onthe blue dress! > > Why did Bush go into Iraq afterall….Oil?  Not. > > I think Bush would have had a much easier time to sit back and let > > IRAQ simmer and finally boil over years in the future.  He took > > extreme political risk by going into IRAQ.  We get most of ouor oil > > from South America anyway, BTW. > > You may say, we should have gotten Saddam the first time in ‘91. > > Well, rememeber that the UN and the Coalition had stated goals of ONLY > > removing Saddam. > > This time around, remember that there were 17 some resolutions to the > > UN about IRAQ.  Also remember that Clinton took no flap for the war in > > Bosnia…does everyone remember that war??  Clinton did that war to > > remove a dictator…and Milosevich had no history of WMD’s!! > > So let’s talk about WMD’s.  Let’s say you are told a bar will have a > > PA for your next gig, so you show up with only your DI box, and no > > rig. > > Guess what, the bar owner was wrong, or the PA broke the night before. > > So is it your fault you did not bring your rig?? > > The intelligence on IRAQ was messed up a bit.  The intelligence on > > Pearl Harbor was also shown to be messed up.  We actually had > > intelligence that we were to be bombed by Japan, and did nothing. > > IRAQ HAD WMD’s this is a fact.  IRAQ was trying to aquire nuclear > > weapons, this is a fact as shown by David Kaye.  IRAQ would have > > continued it’s search for WMD’s.  The fact is, there may still be > > WMD’s there, they may have been moved to Syria right before the war, > > no one knows. > > Does everyone know that there was an old fuselage of a Boeing 707 in > > Northern IRAQ used for terrorist training?  Does everyone realize that > > there were chemical weapon suits found in the IRAQI bunkers?  Does > > everyone realize that IRAQ had buried many weapon systems in the sand, > > to be used later?  It is a fact that entire MIG fighters were buried > > under sand, to be used later! > > How many nuts have you run across in your yard buried by Squirrels > > over the year?  Hmmm, think about it. > > I welcome any responses, > > Good Day…and please keep the conversation going without > > name-calling, > > The Republican Dude > > In an excerpt from drudgereport.com: > > NEWSWEEK’s Jonathan Alter defended the aggressive adultery rumor > > line-of-questioning of the first President Bush on ABC’s NIGHTLINE on > > August 12, 1992, on a broadcast titled: "The Media Charges George Bush > > With Adultery." > > "In this situation, the Oval Office isn’t a temple," Alter explained. > > "The President is a candidate and he has to be asked tough, often > > distasteful, but nonetheless important kinds of questions." > > UPI’s Helen Thomas also defended the Bush affair reportage: > > "Some people might have felt that it wasn’t appropriate. But when you > > have the President there, I think it’s very legitimate to ask him any > > question." > > CUT TO 2004: > > NEWSWEEK’S Alter blasted any and all coverage of the Kerry infidelity > > probe last week on a New York City talkradio outlet — calling the > > investigation "sleazy." > > The media outrage over an erupting story of possible infidelity of a > > presidential candidate — 2004 — peaked with Joe Conason’s cover > > story in SALON late last week ["There he goes again! Matt Drudge and > > the GOP smear machine are back in the Democrats' pants"] > > Conason lamented: > > "But the kind of proof usually required by national news organizations > > isn’t what Drudge needs in order to put innuendo into circulation." > > But is this really the same Joe Conason who in the Summer of 1992 > > wrote a magazine cover story entitled "1,000 REASONS NOT TO VOTE FOR > > GEORGE BUSH?" > > Consaon’s reason #1: > > "He cheats on his wife." > > The rumor of President Bush having an affair was never proved by the > > media. > > The developing Kerry drama may or may not join

… read more »

Response:

>Great post. >Thoughtful. >Truthful.

Yeah, especially comparing Bill Clinton with Hitler, and then backing out. Long: <http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16922> Shorter: <http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16922> Quick and easy: <http://www.xoverboard.com/cartoons/2004_02_11.gif>  or:  <http://tinyurl.com/22w62> Since Uncle Addie got dragged into the room: <http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm> Wow, biz connections going back to slavery. Enabling Hitler with money, arms shipments. Big time  entanglements in some high places. The rape of Poland. Control of public discourse, aiding the rise of Hitler. Clinton? Such a lightweight– lost money in Whitewater, couldn’t keep it his pants even for a sweathog like Monica. –TP

Response:

Nah, buy a 410 over&under Shotgun! Then go hunting!! Or buy a Ferret. Once Mice and Rats smell a Ferret, they’re out of there!!! But if its Squirrels, put on heavier wire mesh over the areas they get in. Do this during the day,while they’re out eating.                                                       Good Luck Bud!! Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Get a cat. > A big one. Skogatt (Norwegian Woods Cat) or Maine coon should do the trick. > Those cats weigh in average 10 to 13 kilos (that would be 22 to 28 lbs). > — > Henry! > "One of the four last guys that are wearing cowboy boots in France." > > How many nuts have you run across in your yard buried by Squirrels > > over the year?  Hmmm, think about it. > I don’t actually see any nuts but the holes are everywhere.  Little > buggers > are living in the attic.  I trapped them by squirting a whole can of > expanding foam into the entry/exit hole.  Then they tore some big holes in > the soffit screen.  I’ve got rat poison all over the place in the attic > and > the little *&%$#ers won’t die!!!!!! > Bud

Response:

I am OUTRAGED that a political post has appeared in this newsgroup.   OUTRAGED I say.  Also, I am SHOCKED that there is gambling going on in this establishment.  SHOCKED! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I wish that the political threads would not go on, however it seems > like many people wish to ebter into a discussion.  SO the title of the > post is very obvious that you should go elsewhere is you do not wish > to discuss this issue. > YOU MAY JUMP TO THE NEWSCLIP AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, THE REST OF > THIS IS MY POLITICAL RANT, NO OFFENSE> > Please read the excert I have pasted below.  While Clinton is/was as > polarizing an individual as Bush is, I think intelligent debate is > healthy.  However, it seems many individuals can’t seem to debate > rationally. > I think Clinton was a lame duck president in his 8 years in office. > This means he sat in the chair, and let the world unfold around him. > I also believe Clinton is a wonderful politician, and has much > charisma.  On a side note, Hitler had much charisma too (I am not > saying Clinton was evil like that, though). > When Clinton took office, it was a fact that the economy was starting > to recover, and that the internet was becoming an economic force. > Therefore the economy did better, spurned on by tax cuts that Congress > twisted Clinton’s arm for, and got. > During the 8 years that Clinton was in office, the economy hummed > along with or without help from Clinton.  At the end of his 8 years, > the economy started into a recession, this is fact.  Under Clinton > there was no oversight over the large corporations of the US, and the > stock market was over-valued.  Clinton didn’t even start the > Palestinian/Isreal peace talks….the peace process began under Bush > Sr.  The corporate scandals of today took many years to > formulate…again under Clinton’s watch. > Clinton was therefore, lucky.  The economy is cyclical, and those > variable he should have controlled he did not…but he was fortunate > enough to leave office before the bombs he figuratively built, > exploded. > Clinton sought to dilute US power in the rest of the world, he did not > want the US to be a Super-power.  The result was that France, and > Germany really, really liked us!  Old-Europe will always begrudge what > America has accomplished, and delight in any equalization in power > between the US and the rest of the world. > In Clinton’s 8 years terrorist and Islamic extremism grew.  This > extremism did not suddenly appear in a few years under Bush.  We all > know that a rock band is difficult enough to form, let alone, a > terrorist network!  Thereore, even though the world seemed to like us > more under Clinton…the hatred still existed.  Again, this hatred is > against the way our culture is, pure and simple. > So about Bush:  He is not a good politician like CLinton, nor is he as > charismatic.  Clinton is a good BS-er…he wold make a good salesmen, > and he probably copuld (and did!) talk many women into bed. > Bush stutters, he is not a smooth talker.  However, he does what he > thinks is right for the country and not just himself. > These problems in the world today did not just happen overnight.  The > economy was in recession when Bush came into office.  The corporate > scandals finally erupted, the market was down due to the internet > bubble bursting.  Bin Laden had all his networks already in place, and > Saddamm had, had NO U.N. inspectors since Clinton/UN allowed IRAQ to > go unsupervised. > Bush came into office in a fluky election.  The news media reported on > the winner of Florida BEFORE the northern third had even voted, > prompting this very conservative section of florida to have on of the > worst voter-turnouts ever, because everyone their vote didn’t matter. > The news media really screwed up the florida election results, as well > as the "popular vote."  No one will ever know whether Bush cold have > won the "popular vote." > Also, remember that the Election Machines were messed up for years > under Gov. Chiles (D), before Jeb Bush got to the state.  Also, > remember that the ballots that were "confusing" were designed by the > Democrats—so if anyone was "disenfranchised" blame the democrats. > Bush was elected under the laws of US, period.  When elections go bad, > there is a hierarchy of the way things should go.  This process went > along, and Bush won. > The recounts have shown mixed results, but it appears Bush would have > won all the recounts, hanging chads, or not!  Remember all the > military ballots that the Democrats wished to throw out, and that they > wanted to recount heavily Democratic districts supervised by Democrats > doing the recounts! > As a side note….did anyone ever realize that on the Florida ballot > there was a candidate up for the Presidential Election named Monica > Moorehead?  Very funny name given Clinton’s mess onthe blue dress! > Why did Bush go into Iraq afterall….Oil?  Not. > I think Bush would have had a much easier time to sit back and let > IRAQ simmer and finally boil over years in the future.  He took > extreme political risk by going into IRAQ.  We get most of ouor oil > from South America anyway, BTW. > You may say, we should have gotten Saddam the first time in ‘91. > Well, rememeber that the UN and the Coalition had stated goals of ONLY > removing Saddam. > This time around, remember that there were 17 some resolutions to the > UN about IRAQ.  Also remember that Clinton took no flap for the war in > Bosnia…does everyone remember that war??  Clinton did that war to > remove a dictator…and Milosevich had no history of WMD’s!! > So let’s talk about WMD’s.  Let’s say you are told a bar will have a > PA for your next gig, so you show up with only your DI box, and no > rig. > Guess what, the bar owner was wrong, or the PA broke the night before. > So is it your fault you did not bring your rig?? > The intelligence on IRAQ was messed up a bit.  The intelligence on > Pearl Harbor was also shown to be messed up.  We actually had > intelligence that we were to be bombed by Japan, and did nothing. > IRAQ HAD WMD’s this is a fact.  IRAQ was trying to aquire nuclear > weapons, this is a fact as shown by David Kaye.  IRAQ would have > continued it’s search for WMD’s.  The fact is, there may still be > WMD’s there, they may have been moved to Syria right before the war, > no one knows. > Does everyone know that there was an old fuselage of a Boeing 707 in > Northern IRAQ used for terrorist training?  Does everyone realize that > there were chemical weapon suits found in the IRAQI bunkers?  Does > everyone realize that IRAQ had buried many weapon systems in the sand, > to be used later?  It is a fact that entire MIG fighters were buried > under sand, to be used later! > How many nuts have you run across in your yard buried by Squirrels > over the year?  Hmmm, think about it. > I welcome any responses, > Good Day…and please keep the conversation going without > name-calling, > The Republican Dude > In an excerpt from drudgereport.com: > NEWSWEEK’s Jonathan Alter defended the aggressive adultery rumor > line-of-questioning of the first President Bush on ABC’s NIGHTLINE on > August 12, 1992, on a broadcast titled: "The Media Charges George Bush > With Adultery." > "In this situation, the Oval Office isn’t a temple," Alter explained. > "The President is a candidate and he has to be asked tough, often > distasteful, but nonetheless important kinds of questions." > UPI’s Helen Thomas also defended the Bush affair reportage: > "Some people might have felt that it wasn’t appropriate. But when you > have the President there, I think it’s very legitimate to ask him any > question." > CUT TO 2004: > NEWSWEEK’S Alter blasted any and all coverage of the Kerry infidelity > probe last week on a New York City talkradio outlet — calling the > investigation "sleazy." > The media outrage over an erupting story of possible infidelity of a > presidential candidate — 2004 — peaked with Joe Conason’s cover > story in SALON late last week ["There he goes again! Matt Drudge and > the GOP smear machine are back in the Democrats' pants"] > Conason lamented: > "But the kind of proof usually required by national news organizations > isn’t what Drudge needs in order to put innuendo into circulation." > But is this really the same Joe Conason who in the Summer of 1992 > wrote a magazine cover story entitled "1,000 REASONS NOT TO VOTE FOR > GEORGE BUSH?" > Consaon’s reason #1: > "He cheats on his wife." > The rumor of President Bush having an affair was never proved by the > media. > The developing Kerry drama may or may not join it on the shelf.

Response:

> I am OUTRAGED that a political post has appeared in this newsgroup.   > OUTRAGED I say.  Also, I am SHOCKED that there is gambling going on in > this establishment.  SHOCKED!

Here’s your winnings…

Response:

>Great post. >Thoughtful. >Truthful. > Yeah, especially comparing Bill Clinton with Hitler, and then backing out.

Yeah, come on, Steve.  Hillary’s a much better comparison.  The screaming, whining, nag…. Bud

Response:

Dude, there’s a damned good reason to be skeptical of the Kerry affair charges — ‘cuz it never happened: http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/K/KERRY_POLIER?SITE=YAHOOELN…

Response:

C’mon, it must be true. Drudge is rarely wrong… according to pd. It has to be true, otherwise they’ll have to find dirt elsewhere. I just hope they can find some Iraq war-sized dirt. ;^) Brad >Dude, there’s a damned good reason to be skeptical of the Kerry affair >charges — ‘cuz it never happened: >http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/K/KERRY_POLIER?SITE=YAHOOELN…

TION=POLITICS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Response:

> C’mon, it must be true. Drudge is rarely wrong… according to pd. > It has to be true, otherwise they’ll have to find dirt elsewhere. > I just hope they can find some Iraq war-sized dirt.

I’m nominating this for "Post of the Week".

Response:

I read the news report that was linked to in the previous post, and one line stuck out for me; this was about the parents of Sen. Kerry’s alleged paramour Ms Polier’s parents being quoted in the UK tabloid paper "The Sun". For those of you who aren’t familiar with this rag, it was – and may still be – owned by Rupert Murdock, the ex-Australian now American media baron who owns Fox news, and it has a history of creating news stories (often with a very right-wing extremely pro-Thatcher theme) quoting people that they didn’t even speak with; there was a big scandal in the 80’s when this ‘news’paper was roundly slated for ‘quoting’ the widow of a British soldier killed in the Falklands war when they hadn’t spoken with her. Regards Fretbuzz

> Dude, there’s a damned good reason to be skeptical of the Kerry affair > charges — ‘cuz it never happened:

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/K/KERRY_POLIER?SITE=YAHOOELN… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

>> How many nuts have you run across in your yard buried by Squirrels > over the year?  Hmmm, think about it. > I don’t actually see any nuts but the holes are everywhere.  Little buggers > are living in the attic.  I trapped them by squirting a whole can of > expanding foam into the entry/exit hole.  Then they tore some big holes in > the soffit screen.  I’ve got rat poison all over the place in the attic and > the little *&%$#ers won’t die!!!!!! > Bud

Shame yer poisonin’ em. I heard they makes great bar-b-que. Taste like Penguin.

Response:

> Shame yer poisonin’ em. I heard they makes great bar-b-que. > Taste like Penguin.

They actually make really good gumbo.  No kidding.  They’ve just pissed me off to much to eat them at this point.  I bought a trap off of Ebay today. Bud

Response:

> I read the news report that was linked to in the previous post, and one line > stuck out for me; this was about the parents of Sen. Kerry’s alleged > paramour Ms Polier’s parents being quoted in the UK tabloid paper "The Sun". > For those of you who aren’t familiar with this rag, it was – and may still > be – owned by Rupert Murdock, the ex-Australian now American media baron who > owns Fox news, and it has a history of creating news stories (often with a > very right-wing extremely pro-Thatcher theme) quoting people that they > didn’t even speak with; there was a big scandal in the 80’s when this > ‘news’paper was roundly slated for ‘quoting’ the widow of a British soldier > killed in the Falklands war when they hadn’t spoken with her. > Regards > Fretbuzz

Doesn’t surprise me. The media sucks. Double that for TV media. Right wing, left wing, whatever. I’m so tired of their "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality. If TV news was your only source of information, you’d think nothing good EVER happens in the world. The only time you hear about anything uplifting, or life-affirming on the news is when it’s tacked on at the end of a broadcast, almost as an afterthought. A make-believe happy ending to the day’s catalog of carnage. To paraphrase a comic routine I once heard: "18 THOUSAND PEOPLE DIED TODAY IN A CHILEAN EARTHQUAKE. But, look….KITTENS!" Sad thing is, it’s not a joke. And that’s just the way they like it. They want you tuned in, they want you frightened of terrorism, of serial snipers, of West Nile virus, of Mad Cows and — (LOL, my latest favorite) Bird Flu —  and so does the government that feeds them this shit. Fear makes it hard to think straight…and makes it easy for them to tell you what to do, how to think. In the wake of 9/11 they know that many people (daresay the majority) will listen to anything, believe anything, tolerate anything…as long as they can feel safe. Fuck em. Living in fear isn’t living at all. P.S. And someone please tell Geraldo Rivera that nobody cares if he’s rooting around up Bin Laden’s ass with a flashlight; there are plenty of other reporters over there who manage to cover the war without acting like glory-hound jerk-offs. /rant off

Response:

>I’m nominating this for "Post of the Week".

Don’t you think the POTW should at least be bass related????

Response:

>> Shame yer poisonin’ em. I heard they makes great bar-b-que. > Taste like Penguin. > They actually make really good gumbo.  No kidding.  They’ve just pissed me > off to much to eat them at this point.  I bought a trap off of Ebay today. > Bud

Damn. I was hoping for some jerky.

Response:

OT: Good news. Gadhafi wises up

Question:

Check your local newswire of choice… Another one down More to go. Claude

Response:

> Check your local newswire of choice… > Another one down > More to go. > Claude

Yet another vote for Bush!

Response:

>> Check your local newswire of choice… > Another one down > More to go. > Claude >Yet another vote for Bush!

Gadhafi applied for citizenship as well? I musta missed that part. :^) Claude

Response:

> Check your local newswire of choice… > Another one down > More to go.

Projecting power has its place. It is having its desired effect in the Middle East and Libya. I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had a positive effect on some nations that have been doing some things tha were going to eventually get themselves in some serious trouble. Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but I believe, in the context, we have done the right thing, strategically. God bless those who have given their lives, and God bless the innocents who have been killed. I think we are heading-off something potentially far, far worse than 9-11.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Check your local newswire of choice… > Another one down > More to go. >Projecting power has its place. >It is having its desired effect in the Middle >East and Libya. >I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >a positive effect on some nations that have been >doing some things tha were going to eventually >get themselves in some serious trouble.

Absolutely. Not to mention the trouble for the West. >Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >I believe, in the context, we have done the >right thing, strategically. >God bless those who have given their lives, and >God bless the innocents who have been killed.

Amen. >I think we are heading-off something potentially >far, far worse than 9-11.

Yep. Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. Claude

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Check your local newswire of choice… >>Another one down >>More to go. >Projecting power has its place. >It is having its desired effect in the Middle >East and Libya. >I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >a positive effect on some nations that have been >doing some things tha were going to eventually >get themselves in some serious trouble. > Absolutely. > Not to mention the trouble for the West. >Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >I believe, in the context, we have done the >right thing, strategically. >God bless those who have given their lives, and >God bless the innocents who have been killed. > Amen. >I think we are heading-off something potentially >far, far worse than 9-11. > Yep. > Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully.

Me too. I’m worried about North Korea, though. You know they are watching all of this carefully, being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? through negotiations, they are showing signs of coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure too… North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, because North Korea has few lights, due to their horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that damned long ago, if you get my drift. I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous nation, to my way of thinking.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Check your local newswire of choice… >>>Another one down >>>More to go. >>Projecting power has its place. >>It is having its desired effect in the Middle >>East and Libya. >>I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >>a positive effect on some nations that have been >>doing some things tha were going to eventually >>get themselves in some serious trouble. > Absolutely. > Not to mention the trouble for the West. >>Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >>I believe, in the context, we have done the >>right thing, strategically. >>God bless those who have given their lives, and >>God bless the innocents who have been killed. > Amen. >>I think we are heading-off something potentially >>far, far worse than 9-11. > Yep. > Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. >Me too. >I’m worried about North Korea, though. >You know they are watching all of this carefully, >being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? >through negotiations, they are showing signs of >coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… >Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure >too… >North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so >much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly >stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they >might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan >with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy >to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer >they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. >I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the >differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, >because North Korea has few lights, due to their >horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that >damned long ago, if you get my drift. >I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of >doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous >nation, to my way of thinking.

Hard to say about NK They’re not much more isolated, politically than Libya has been. Maybe they’d like to eat and have a warm, lit place to live for a change. I’ve always thought that when the time comes, the Chinese will yank the NK’s leash, anyway. Probably when they ( the Chinese ) can gain something. Time will tell Claude

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Check your local newswire of choice… >>>Another one down >>>More to go. >>Projecting power has its place. >>It is having its desired effect in the Middle >>East and Libya. >>I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >>a positive effect on some nations that have been >>doing some things tha were going to eventually >>get themselves in some serious trouble. > Absolutely. > Not to mention the trouble for the West. >>Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >>I believe, in the context, we have done the >>right thing, strategically. >>God bless those who have given their lives, and >>God bless the innocents who have been killed. > Amen. >>I think we are heading-off something potentially >>far, far worse than 9-11. > Yep. > Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. > Me too. > I’m worried about North Korea, though. > You know they are watching all of this carefully, > being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? > through negotiations, they are showing signs of > coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… > Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure > too… > North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so > much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly > stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they > might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan > with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy > to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer > they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. > I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the > differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, > because North Korea has few lights, due to their > horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that > damned long ago, if you get my drift. > I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of > doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous > nation, to my way of thinking.

I agree, the NK are a scary bunch of deserate and hungry backwoods cousins. But it’s going to be like taming a rattlesnake to bring them up with the rest of us. Who gets to put their hand in the snake sack first?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>Check your local newswire of choice… >>>>Another one down >>>>More to go. >>>Projecting power has its place. >>>It is having its desired effect in the Middle >>>East and Libya. >>>I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >>>a positive effect on some nations that have been >>>doing some things tha were going to eventually >>>get themselves in some serious trouble. >>Absolutely. >>Not to mention the trouble for the West. >>>Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >>>I believe, in the context, we have done the >>>right thing, strategically. >>>God bless those who have given their lives, and >>>God bless the innocents who have been killed. >>Amen. >>>I think we are heading-off something potentially >>>far, far worse than 9-11. >>Yep. >>Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. >Me too. >I’m worried about North Korea, though. >You know they are watching all of this carefully, >being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? >through negotiations, they are showing signs of >coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… >Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure >too… >North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so >much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly >stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they >might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan >with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy >to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer >they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. >I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the >differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, >because North Korea has few lights, due to their >horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that >damned long ago, if you get my drift. >I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of >doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous >nation, to my way of thinking. > I agree, the NK are a scary bunch of deserate and hungry backwoods cousins. > But it’s going to be like taming a rattlesnake to bring them up with the > rest of us. > Who gets to put their hand in the snake sack first?

Well, being a snake person from the tike years, I might disagree with the characterization of NK as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly factor.  All the other differences, we both know well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, to feed itsself. Very unlike NK. However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a wild snake. Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are necessary. All that aside, let’s say

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>>Check your local newswire of choice… >>>>>Another one down >>>>>More to go. >>>>Projecting power has its place. >>>>It is having its desired effect in the Middle >>>>East and Libya. >>>>I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >>>>a positive effect on some nations that have been >>>>doing some things tha were going to eventually >>>>get themselves in some serious trouble. >>>Absolutely. >>>Not to mention the trouble for the West. >>>>Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >>>>I believe, in the context, we have done the >>>>right thing, strategically. >>>>God bless those who have given their lives, and >>>>God bless the innocents who have been killed. >>>Amen. >>>>I think we are heading-off something potentially >>>>far, far worse than 9-11. >>>Yep. >>>Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. >>Me too. >>I’m worried about North Korea, though. >>You know they are watching all of this carefully, >>being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? >>through negotiations, they are showing signs of >>coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… >>Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure >>too… >>North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so >>much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly >>stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they >>might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan >>with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy >>to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer >>they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. >>I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the >>differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, >>because North Korea has few lights, due to their >>horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that >>damned long ago, if you get my drift. >>I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of >>doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous >>nation, to my way of thinking. > I agree, the NK are a scary bunch of deserate and hungry backwoods cousins. > But it’s going to be like taming a rattlesnake to bring them up with the > rest of us. > Who gets to put their hand in the snake sack first? > Well, being a snake person from the tike years, > I might disagree with the characterization of NK > as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly > factor.  All the other differences, we both know > well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing > its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t > threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone > to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. > It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that > different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except > for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, > to feed itsself. > Very unlike NK.

Sure, I didn’t mean to imply that snakes, rattler or otherwise are decietful or evil, just that dealing with NK is going to seem a lot like taming them. Snakes will strike when they are cornered and threatened. But I agree a snake is just being a snake. > However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel > how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, > deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a > wild snake.

Just as a wild snake can eventually become accustomed to humans to the point that it no longer feels threatened, NK if it hopes to survive will have to learn how to deal with contact with the civilized world without going reflexive. > Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually > incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t > get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are > necessary.

Every contact that they have that doesn’t result in them being attacked helps. There is no reason why that cannot go on as long as needed, except, if they freak and strike. > All that aside, let’s say

??

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>>>Check your local newswire of choice… >>>>>>Another one down >>>>>>More to go. >>>>>Projecting power has its place. >>>>>It is having its desired effect in the Middle >>>>>East and Libya. >>>>>I feel our projection of power in Iraq has had >>>>>a positive effect on some nations that have been >>>>>doing some things tha were going to eventually >>>>>get themselves in some serious trouble. >>>>Absolutely. >>>>Not to mention the trouble for the West. >>>>>Yes, lives have been lost in the process, but >>>>>I believe, in the context, we have done the >>>>>right thing, strategically. >>>>>God bless those who have given their lives, and >>>>>God bless the innocents who have been killed. >>>>Amen. >>>>>I think we are heading-off something potentially >>>>>far, far worse than 9-11. >>>>Yep. >>>>Hoping a few more dominoes fall peacefully. >>>Me too. >>>I’m worried about North Korea, though. >>>You know they are watching all of this carefully, >>>being #3 on the ‘list’ (Iran being #2, and guess what? >>>through negotiations, they are showing signs of >>>coming clean, and getting on the right side of things)… >>>Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are feeling pressure >>>too… >>>North Korea is so isolated and secretive, and has so >>>much weaponry trained on Seoul (aside from the incredibly >>>stupid soft implication *they* have put forth, that they >>>might be able to hit the West coast of the US or Japan >>>with a nuke)…I don’t think they are going to be as easy >>>to intimidate, mainly because of the conventional hammer >>>they have aimed at South Korea, 24×7. >>>I read that from a satellite, you can clearly see the >>>differentiation between North Korea and South Korea, >>>because North Korea has few lights, due to their >>>horrible infrastructure.  The Korean War was not that >>>damned long ago, if you get my drift. >>>I don’t think *they* accept that it’s over for their way of >>>doing business….and that makes them a very dangerous >>>nation, to my way of thinking. >>I agree, the NK are a scary bunch of deserate and hungry backwoods > cousins. >>But it’s going to be like taming a rattlesnake to bring them up with the >>rest of us. >>Who gets to put their hand in the snake sack first? >Well, being a snake person from the tike years, >I might disagree with the characterization of NK >as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly >factor.  All the other differences, we both know >well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing >its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t >threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone >to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. >It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that >different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except >for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, >to feed itsself. >Very unlike NK. > Sure, I didn’t mean to imply that snakes, rattler or otherwise > are decietful or evil, just that dealing with NK is going > to seem a lot like taming them. Snakes will strike when they > are cornered and threatened. But I agree a snake is just being a snake. >However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel >how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, >deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a >wild snake. > Just as a wild snake can eventually become accustomed to > humans to the point that it no longer feels threatened, NK > if it hopes to survive will have to learn how to deal with > contact with the civilized world without going reflexive.

An aside…IMO, wild snakes may see the oppotunity in hanging around man-made structures, they ain’t bears, deer, or squirrels in intellect by a long shot. Those mammals change their behavior (intelligently) when in an environment close to humans.  Snakes, IME, may take advantage of human buildings, but they never get any more ‘used to’ people than in the wild…I’ve caught a lot of em…it didn’t much matter where they were, they behaved the same.  They go the opposite direction, every one of them, if they have an ‘out’ regardless of whether they are a barn snake or a snake in the woods. Not that it needs support, but damn, are truly ‘wild’ squirrels a very wiley and difficult animal to hunt.  Not worth it, either, very gamey…best fried (thinly sliced) or cooked a long time. All that is just my experience, but an aside to the kernel of what we are discussing. >Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually >incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t >get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are >necessary. > Every contact that they have that doesn’t result in them being attacked > helps. > There is no reason why that cannot go on as long as needed, except, if they > freak and strike.

I agree. NK is a very dicey matter. And because of other changes in the world…like with the economic engagement in China, perhaps this Stalanist state will change gradually over time….it is a ‘hold the line, and prevent a disaster’ situation…and maybe in 10 or 20 years, things will change from within, IMO. Sometimes buying time is the best option. Attacking them directly would be a disaster, IMHO. >All that aside, let’s say > ??

Editing mistake, there. Merry Christmas! , by the way.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Well, being a snake person from the tike years, >>I might disagree with the characterization of NK >>as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly >>factor.  All the other differences, we both know >>well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing >>its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t >>threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone >>to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. >>It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that >>different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except >>for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, >>to feed itsself. >>Very unlike NK. > Sure, I didn’t mean to imply that snakes, rattler or otherwise > are decietful or evil, just that dealing with NK is going > to seem a lot like taming them. Snakes will strike when they > are cornered and threatened. But I agree a snake is just being a snake. >>However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel >>how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, >>deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a >>wild snake. > Just as a wild snake can eventually become accustomed to > humans to the point that it no longer feels threatened, NK > if it hopes to survive will have to learn how to deal with > contact with the civilized world without going reflexive. > An aside…IMO, wild snakes may see the oppotunity in hanging around > man-made structures, they ain’t bears, deer, or squirrels in > intellect by a long shot.

No that’s true, it’s hard to even ascribe any thought at all to a reptilian brain. Almost certainly there is no self awareness of any sort. I don’t believe that a reptile brain has all the needed components for learning or memory. > Those mammals change their behavior (intelligently) when in an > environment close to humans.  Snakes, IME, may take advantage > of human buildings, but they never get any more ‘used to’ people > than in the wild…I’ve caught a lot of em…it didn’t much matter > where they were, they behaved the same.  They go the opposite > direction, every one of them, if they have an ‘out’ regardless of > whether they are a barn snake or a snake in the woods.

Well, Yeah. But what I meant was more of an intimate contact than just hanging out in the barn or under the garage. I’ve had many snakes that when I first caught them would be striking or trying to for as long as you held them, but after a while they seemed to lose the reflex and as a cold blooded creature, begin to appreciate the mammalian heat. Not that a snake is capable of recognition or reason, but they do seem to be able to cease seeing humans as threats and begin seeing them as, I guess as warm rocks or something. > Not that it needs support, but damn, are truly ‘wild’ squirrels > a very wiley and difficult animal to hunt.  Not worth it, either, > very gamey…best fried (thinly sliced) or cooked a long time.

yep. the best way is to find an oak grove with some nests and sit very still for a long while. Then you’ll only hear them at first. They rarely let themselves be seen and have a way of keeping a tree trunk between you and themselves. You have to be a pretty good shot to hit the little bit of them that you will see. Even when you think you have hit one, they have a weird way of dissappearing half way to the ground. I like them OK, but much prefer rabbits. Easier to hunt and they taste good to boot. i really don’t hunt at all anymore though I am pretty good at it, and could if I had to. it’s just that pulling the skin off of dead things is not my idea of fun really, and the supermarket is usualy pretty well stocked with tasty mammalian carcass snackage. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All that is just my experience, but an aside to the kernel of > what we are discussing. >>Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually >>incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t >>get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are >>necessary. > Every contact that they have that doesn’t result in them being attacked > helps. > There is no reason why that cannot go on as long as needed, except, if they > freak and strike. > I agree. NK is a very dicey matter. > And because of other changes in the world…like with the > economic engagement in China, perhaps this Stalanist state > will change gradually over time….it is a ‘hold the line, > and prevent a disaster’ situation…and maybe in 10 or 20 > years, things will change from within, IMO.

Well, things would have to change I think, I mean, how long can a people go on living on boiled shoes and tree bark? > Sometimes buying time is the best option. > Attacking them directly would be a disaster, IMHO.

True enough, but then again, maybe not attacking them directly will be a disaster too. The whole situation has disaster written all over it either way IMO. >>All that aside, let’s say > ?? > Editing mistake, there.

> Merry Christmas! , by the way.

Back to you!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>Well, being a snake person from the tike years, > >>I might disagree with the characterization of NK > >>as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly > >>factor.  All the other differences, we both know > >>well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing > >>its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t > >>threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone > >>to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. > >>It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that > >>different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except > >>for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, > >>to feed itsself. > >>Very unlike NK. > > Sure, I didn’t mean to imply that snakes, rattler or otherwise > > are decietful or evil, just that dealing with NK is going > > to seem a lot like taming them. Snakes will strike when they > > are cornered and threatened. But I agree a snake is just being a snake. > >>However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel > >>how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, > >>deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a > >>wild snake. > > Just as a wild snake can eventually become accustomed to > > humans to the point that it no longer feels threatened, NK > > if it hopes to survive will have to learn how to deal with > > contact with the civilized world without going reflexive. > An aside…IMO, wild snakes may see the oppotunity in hanging around > man-made structures, they ain’t bears, deer, or squirrels in > intellect by a long shot. > No that’s true, it’s hard to even ascribe any thought at all to a reptilian > brain. > Almost certainly there is no self awareness of any sort. I don’t believe > that > a reptile brain has all the needed components for learning or memory. > Those mammals change their behavior (intelligently) when in an > environment close to humans.  Snakes, IME, may take advantage > of human buildings, but they never get any more ‘used to’ people > than in the wild…I’ve caught a lot of em…it didn’t much matter > where they were, they behaved the same.  They go the opposite > direction, every one of them, if they have an ‘out’ regardless of > whether they are a barn snake or a snake in the woods. > Well, Yeah. But what I meant was more of an intimate contact than > just hanging out in the barn or under the garage. I’ve had many snakes that > when I first caught them would be striking or trying to for as long as you > held > them, but after a while they seemed to lose the reflex and as a cold blooded > creature, > begin to appreciate the mammalian heat. Not that a snake is capable of > recognition > or reason, but they do seem to be able to cease seeing humans as threats and > begin > seeing them as, I guess as warm rocks or something.

I’ve had my share of contact with snakes from numerous geographical locations….  and…  snakes are snakes…  they will do their best to get away, bite you if they feel the need.. and will be ‘a snake’ no matter how you treat them, for however long….  as they say… " A snake, is a snake." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Not that it needs support, but damn, are truly ‘wild’ squirrels > a very wiley and difficult animal to hunt.  Not worth it, either, > very gamey…best fried (thinly sliced) or cooked a long time. > yep. the best way is to find an oak grove with some nests and sit very still > for a long while. > Then you’ll only hear them at first. They rarely let themselves be seen and > have a way of keeping a tree trunk between you and themselves. You have to > be a pretty > good shot to hit the little bit of them that you will see. Even when you > think you have > hit one, they have a weird way of dissappearing half way to the ground. > I like them OK, but much prefer rabbits. Easier to hunt and they taste good > to boot.

I hunted forrest squirels as a kid, with my father…  we used a couple of methods to get them….  We had a ‘call’ that would  get them to come in close enough to shoot them.   Or we’d go with ’squirrel dogs’ that would tree them, and eventually they’d jump…! ! !    It was a moving target shot on a squirrel coming out of the tip-top of a tree..! ! !   And no.. these were not ‘flying squirrels"…    The very first time you experience this it is plenty supprising.  They just  LEAP  from the top of the tree…  and free-fall to the ground… bounce on the leaves and run like the dickens…! ! ! ! The trick is to shoot them on the way down… I’m not a fan of squirrel stew so I gave up hunting them… until they decided they wanted to live in my attic…  then I killed a few, left them where they fell, as a lesson to the others.  It works like a charm, not a squirrel for years. They ARE getting a bit bolder, so it’s time to take a couple of them down to remind the ‘new’ generation that they want to live somewhere OTHER than my attic. >  i really don’t hunt at all anymore though I am pretty good at it, and could > if I had to.

Me too…. > it’s just that pulling the skin off of dead things is not my idea of fun > really, and the supermarket is usualy pretty well stocked with tasty > mammalian carcass snackage.

Agreed…! ! ! ! Ahhhh…..    deceased beast..! ! ! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All that is just my experience, but an aside to the kernel of > what we are discussing. > >>Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually > >>incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t > >>get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are > >>necessary. > > Every contact that they have that doesn’t result in them being attacked > > helps. > > There is no reason why that cannot go on as long as needed, except, if > they > > freak and strike. > I agree. NK is a very dicey matter. > And because of other changes in the world…like with the > economic engagement in China, perhaps this Stalanist state > will change gradually over time….it is a ‘hold the line, > and prevent a disaster’ situation…and maybe in 10 or 20 > years, things will change from within, IMO. > Well, things would have to change I think, I mean, how long can a people > go on living on boiled shoes and tree bark?

Our best move…  IMMHO… would be to insist that the Chinese deal with the NKs… > Sometimes buying time is the best option. > Attacking them directly would be a disaster, IMHO. > True enough, but then again, maybe not attacking them directly will be a > disaster too. > The whole situation has disaster written all over it either way IMO.

Agreed. It must be noted that the NK’s are not NEAR as dumb or stupid as many people think…  they are quite savvy. gtski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>All that aside, let’s say > > ?? > Editing mistake, there. > Merry Christmas! , by the way. > Back to you!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >>>>>In article

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >>Well, being a snake person from the tike years, > > >>I might disagree with the characterization of NK > > >>as a rattlesnake, except to agree with the deadly > > >>factor.  All the other differences, we both know > > >>well…rattlesnakes are just another animal playing > > >>its part in nature, living its life…it doesn’t > > >>threaten, it warns, it would rather be left alone > > >>to pursue its (evolutionally very successful) path. > > >>It is a peaceful, fair animal, that is not all that > > >>different from a blacksnake or corn snake, except > > >>for the very potent weapon (tool) it uses, largely, > > >>to feed itsself. > > >>Very unlike NK. > > > Sure, I didn’t mean to imply that snakes, rattler or otherwise > > > are decietful or evil, just that dealing with NK is going > > > to seem a lot like taming them. Snakes will strike when they > > > are cornered and threatened. But I agree a snake is just being a > snake. > > >>However, if some elements of the NK situation parallel > > >>how one deals with a wild snake…knowledge, speed, > > >>deception, and surprise are how you ‘handle’ a > > >>wild snake. > > > Just as a wild snake can eventually become accustomed to > > > humans to the point that it no longer feels threatened, NK > > > if it hopes to survive will have to learn how to deal with > > > contact with the civilized world without going reflexive. > > An aside…IMO, wild snakes may see the oppotunity in hanging around > > man-made structures, they ain’t bears, deer, or squirrels in > > intellect by a long shot. > No that’s true, it’s hard to even ascribe any thought at all to a > reptilian > brain. > Almost certainly there is no self awareness of any sort. I don’t believe > that > a reptile brain has all the needed components for learning or memory. > > Those mammals change their behavior (intelligently) when in an > > environment close to humans.  Snakes, IME, may take advantage > > of human buildings, but they never get any more ‘used to’ people > > than in the wild…I’ve caught a lot of em…it didn’t much matter > > where they were, they behaved the same.  They go the opposite > > direction, every one of them, if they have an ‘out’ regardless of > > whether they are a barn snake or a snake in the woods. > Well, Yeah. But what I meant was more of an intimate contact than > just hanging out in the barn or under the garage. I’ve had many snakes > that > when I first caught them would be striking or trying to for as long as you > held > them, but after a while they seemed to lose the reflex and as a cold > blooded > creature, > begin to appreciate the mammalian heat. Not that a snake is capable of > recognition > or reason, but they do seem to be able to cease seeing humans as threats > and > begin > seeing them as, I guess as warm rocks or something. > I’ve had my share of contact with snakes from numerous geographical > locations….  and…  snakes are snakes…  they will do their best to > get away, bite you if they feel the need.. and will be ‘a snake’ no matter > how you treat them, for however long….  as they say… " A snake, is a > snake."

I had a Boa and a Python for quite a while, and neither one still exhibited much of that reflex. The Boa in fact, actually seemed to LIKE the contact. I also have kept a few Racers, Garters, Cornsnakes, and such, and once, even a baby Timber rattler for a period of a month or two. the Rattler I never felt any need to handle, but all the others got used to me and ceased trying to get away or strike, and would just crawl up on me to soak up warmth. I don’t think it was the scent really, because once they were used to me they were pretty good eith others too, although the Python and the Racers got a little testy and would bit every once in a while. Sounds ugly, but cats bite worse than Pythons do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Not that it needs support, but damn, are truly ‘wild’ squirrels > > a very wiley and difficult animal to hunt.  Not worth it, either, > > very gamey…best fried (thinly sliced) or cooked a long time. > yep. the best way is to find an oak grove with some nests and sit very > still > for a long while. > Then you’ll only hear them at first. They rarely let themselves be seen > and > have a way of keeping a tree trunk between you and themselves. You have to > be a pretty > good shot to hit the little bit of them that you will see. Even when you > think you have > hit one, they have a weird way of dissappearing half way to the ground. > I like them OK, but much prefer rabbits. Easier to hunt and they taste > good > to boot. > I hunted forrest squirels as a kid, with my father…  we used a couple of > methods to get them….  We had a ‘call’ that would  get them to come in > close enough to shoot them.   Or we’d go with ’squirrel dogs’ that would > tree them, and eventually they’d jump…! ! !    It was a moving target shot > on a squirrel coming out of the tip-top of a tree..! ! !   And no.. these > were > not ‘flying squirrels"…    The very first time you experience this it is > plenty supprising.  They just  LEAP  from the top of the tree…  and > free-fall > to the ground… bounce on the leaves and run like the dickens…! ! ! !

LOL, Yeah I’ve seen that. Plenty amazing, Some of those old Oaks that they like are 100ft tall too. > The trick is to shoot them on the way down…

you and your Pop must have hunted them with shotguns I’d say. I used a .22LR bolt with a scope. You’d wait to see their heads poking around the tree, squeeze off and wait to see what happened. Sometimes they drop to the ground like you described, but instead of trying to hit them falling, with a rifle the thing to do is to just get to that spot as soon as you can, If you got him there he would be, but like as not you at least could see where he  ran to and stalk him out again. Sometimes, you’d see them fall,  but they just seem to disappear in midair, never did make the ground. I figure that they grabbed a branch and scrabbled behind the trunk of a nearby tree. Then you could do that madding dance around the tree trunk dance that squirrels do so well, if you could ever find it again. > I’m not a fan of squirrel stew so I gave up hunting them… until they > decided they > wanted to live in my attic…  then I killed a few, left them where they > fell, as > a lesson to the others.  It works like a charm, not a squirrel for years. > They ARE getting a bit bolder, so it’s time to take a couple of them down > to remind the ‘new’ generation that they want to live somewhere OTHER > than my attic.

LOL. I feed them so they don’t eat my garden and clean out the birdfeeders. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  i really don’t hunt at all anymore though I am pretty good at it, and > could > if I had to. > Me too…. > it’s just that pulling the skin off of dead things is not my idea of fun > really, and the supermarket is usualy pretty well stocked with tasty > mammalian carcass snackage. > Agreed…! ! ! ! > Ahhhh…..    deceased beast..! ! ! > > All that is just my experience, but an aside to the kernel of > > what we are discussing. > > >>Hopefully negotiation, pressure, time, and eventually > > >>incentive will work with NK…hopefully things don’t > > >>get so bad that the other ’snake methods’ are > > >>necessary. > > > Every contact that they have that doesn’t result in them being > attacked > > > helps. > > > There is no reason why that cannot go on as long as needed, except, if > they > > > freak and strike. > > I agree. NK is a very dicey matter. > > And because of other changes in the world…like with the > > economic engagement in China, perhaps this Stalanist state > > will change gradually over time….it is a ‘hold the line, > > and prevent a disaster’ situation…and maybe in 10 or 20 > > years, things will change from within, IMO. > Well, things would have to change I think, I mean, how long can a people > go on living on boiled shoes and tree bark? > Our best move…  IMMHO… would be to insist that the Chinese deal > with the NKs… > > Sometimes buying time is the best option. > > Attacking them directly would be a disaster, IMHO. > True enough, but then again, maybe not attacking them directly will be a > disaster too. > The whole situation has disaster written all over it either way IMO. > Agreed. > It must be noted that the NK’s are not NEAR as dumb or stupid > as many people think…  they are quite savvy. > gtski

Yep, not stupid just sly and stubborn.

Response:

Nighttime Blasts Shake Baghdad — 301 U.S. forces have died

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Including US civilians killed in Iraq war.  That is my count as of > tonite.  Including the rest of the coalition, it is like 381 or so. > — > As of 8-13-03, in the 146 days since the start of the Iraq War, the US > has suffered 1,895 casualties (6,694 medevac’d)* in the Iraq Theater, > Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Djibouti, Palestine, Israel, Colombia, > Pakistan, the United States, Yemen, Jordan and Liberia – 312 killed, > 1582 wounded (6381 medevac’d) and 1 missing; or 2.1 killed per day. For > the Iraq War, there have been 1,795 US casualties (6,592 medevac’d), 282 > killed and 1513 wounded (6310 medevac’d); or 1.9 killed per day. The > British have suffered 52 killed or missing; their wounded tally is > unknown.  US casualty totals cover both civilian and military victims of > the War on Terror in the locales listed above. British totals cover the > Iraq War only.  A rough though incomplete estimate of Iraqi civilan > casualties so far is 7,870 killed and 19,733 wounded. The cost of the > Iraq War so far has been $74.3 billion. > *The medevac figure includes all troops airlifted home on medevac.  The > figure is higher due to the inclusion of physical and mental illnesses > in the total. > http://tinyurl.com/natv  http://tinyurl.com/m3b4 > http://tinyurl.com/nau9

Hey Free – a new Security report has just appeared on the U. N. site again – looks like they’re back online: Text sans maps: General:   Unconfirmed report, from usually reliable source, suggests that groups of foreign fighters (F.F.) are entering into Iraq via the North-East of Iraq, more particularly trough the mountainous areas of Halabjah.  This region is well known for being a traditional smugglers road between Iran and Iraq.  F.F. groups attempting to sneak into Iraq will find there, a field favouring their insertion and various venal local supports.  .  While in Iraq, theses F.F. groups are reported following "clandestine insertion lines" trough the Province of Diyala and eventually hiding among the local inhabitants in the region of Ramadi, Fallujah and in certain quarters of Baghdad. The new surge of small scale "amateurs" style attacks against C.F. in the Baghdad Region could be attributed at this wave of new arrival without real connexion with the more organised groups linked to the former regime. Some of these F.F. are reported being former Foreigner Taliban having fled Afghanistan and clandestinely travelled trough Iran. There was a surge in number of attacks against C.F. in the area Northwest of Hilla. Baghdad and surrounding regions including the Western Desert:  There were a low number of reported attacks against C.F. into Baghdad City for these last four days.  However the number of attacks in the Baghdad Region, mainly on the HWY 1 on its section between Ramadi and Fallujah and in the all Diyala Provinces, remains the highest of the country.  We have also observed a significant surge in the number of attacks against C.F. in the region south of Baghdad in the belt: Iskandariyah

Who is this quit for anyway?

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit intact while he blew his.   During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I don’t want to smoke.   Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t too easy early on.  It is now. I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this time.  Just hang in there! *hugs* —    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie!        %%      (—-)     ( >__< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~ Quit since 11/01/2001 http://binniebee.com http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

> > By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D > I hope so Binnie!  You know how long I have been struggling with this. > I have never quit during hunting season before.  It was always too easy to > smoke.  In fact my Novender quit was due to the fact that hunting was > drawing to a close & I wouldn’t be able to hide it anymore.  There have been > so many factors this time that would normally sabotouge a quit and yet I’m > still here.  You don’t suppose that this might actually be the one?

Yes, I think that is exactly it, Chris! WTG, GF! :^D You know we’re all behind you! *hugs* BB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Crossing my fingers > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 10 minutes and 9 seconds. > 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.13. Life saved: 1 day, > 15 hours, 5 minutes. > Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first > games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always > the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so > that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired > of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit > so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be > supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I > wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from > smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit > intact while he blew his. > During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without > which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and > work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ > months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) > time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an > apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see > my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and > my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere > three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I > don’t want to smoke. > Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s > work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were > kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke > and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know > you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early > days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t > too easy early on.  It is now. > I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this > time.  Just hang in there! > *hugs* > — >    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie! >        %% >      (—-) >     ( >__< ) >     ^^ ~~ ^^ >     ~f3as3~ > Quit since 11/01/2001 > http://binniebee.com > http://www.cyberdigs.com

–    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie!        %%      (—-)     ( >__< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~ Quit since 11/01/2001 http://binniebee.com http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

Chris this quit is for you. I am a secret smoker during all my quits, I have now remorse about lying to myself. That’s all it is though, Lying. I am not normally telling untruths all the time so it must be the nicobitch dragging me down to its level in  the gutter. Stay vigilant Chris and this hold the nicobitch has will lesson, I know you can do it. Lovin your meter. J

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D

I hope so Binnie!  You know how long I have been struggling with this. I have never quit during hunting season before.  It was always too easy to smoke.  In fact my Novender quit was due to the fact that hunting was drawing to a close & I wouldn’t be able to hide it anymore.  There have been so many factors this time that would normally sabotouge a quit and yet I’m still here.  You don’t suppose that this might actually be the one? Crossing my fingers Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 10 minutes and 9 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.13. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first > games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always > the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so > that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired > of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit > so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be > supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I > wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from > smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit > intact while he blew his. > During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without > which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and > work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ > months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) > time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an > apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see > my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and > my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere > three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I > don’t want to smoke. > Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s > work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were > kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke > and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know > you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early > days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t > too easy early on.  It is now. > I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this > time.  Just hang in there! > *hugs* > — >    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie! >        %% >      (—-) >     ( >__< ) >     ^^ ~~ ^^ >     ~f3as3~ > Quit since 11/01/2001 > http://binniebee.com > http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

> Chris, you’re doing really well!  Glad you’ve got this one figured out. You > are really on your way. > hugs, > elle

Oh gosh I hope so Elle.  I soooo want this. Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 4 minutes and 17 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.11. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he > will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. > No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing. This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Response:

> I really like all this stuff you figure out to make the demon suffer.

Thanks Paul.  I’m having fun with it.  Your going to do just fine Chris. > After he fills him full of arrows, give him a few musket balls too, just for > good measure > Paul D

And then have him stuffed & put on my wall  :) What a trophy that would be! Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 3 minutes and 2 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.11. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nine months, one week, three days, 14 hours, 22 minutes and 53 seconds. > 14229 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,565.06. Life saved: 7 weeks, 9 hours, > 45 minutes. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> Ain’t that the truth?  Keep posting, sweetie….you’re going to be ok this > time.  You seem to have a whole new attitude with this quit that is going to > take you a long way. > Sally

I am even surprizing myself a little.  I wonder where this "strong" me came from?!  Or maybe she was there the whole time, hiding behind an addiction. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do > you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since > you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and > let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> chris_g: > … >WHAT AM I THINKING???? >It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in >the world (to me anyway) > … >OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep >it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you >hear me???   NO WAY!!! > … > Way to go, Chris! Right here is where the battle is won. > Sneak smokes are just one more of nicodemon’s lies. It would only work if the > smoker could do it while keeping it from herself…because the only person you > have to stay true to (in a quit) is yourself.

Well said.  And so true. > Stay strong. You are well on your way

Thanks Maddie.  I mean it. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> —– > Maddie, 5 months

Response:

> Be strong Chris……I know you can do it.   You have been their for me > quit buddies are for ya know…….

Thanks Nancy. I appreciate it. I think this is a turning point in my quit.  I realize that I want to be free of the addiction so bad that I am willing to put up with anything to get there.  I’m having some rough times but it’s OK…….I’m not going to let it break me.  There is WAY to much at stake. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hum…….Trolling along are ya……

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing. This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Be strong Chris……I know you can do it.   You have been their for me quit buddies are for ya know……. I know you can do this.    I live alone, so I’m always answering to myself……  Be strong…. Nancy AKA Taterbug

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Not to worry Susan.  I’ve lived with a hunter long enough to be able to > identify vermin. > Chris > Still 3W+ > Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. > Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? > Oh lookey, here is one!!!! > > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > >> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. > >> He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This > >> means he will be gone alot. > >> And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > >> it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies > >> about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted > >> without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the > >> most.  Awwww……the freedom. > >> WHAT AM I THINKING???? > >> It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > >> overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > >> man in the world (to me anyway) > >> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. > >> "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > >> OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to > >> keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to > >> fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! > >> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > >> since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an > >> archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I > >> warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. > >> Chris > >> f3as3 > >> Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > >> seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. > >> Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? Oh lookey, here is one!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. > He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This > means he will be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies > about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted > without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the > most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > man in the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. > "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to > keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to > fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an > archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I > warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. > Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Not to worry Susan.  I’ve lived with a hunter long enough to be able to identify vermin. Chris Still 3W+

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. > Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? > Oh lookey, here is one!!!! > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! >> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. >> He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This >> means he will be gone alot. >> And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide >> it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies >> about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted >> without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the >> most.  Awwww……the freedom. >> WHAT AM I THINKING???? >> It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >> overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important >> man in the world (to me anyway) >> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. >> "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on >> OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to >> keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to >> fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! >> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And >> since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an >> archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I >> warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. >> Chris >> f3as3 >> Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 >> seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. >> Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Stickhead. Lee OF – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means > he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not > smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.   > This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.   > "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.   > Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale > and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot.

I really like all this stuff you figure out to make the demon suffer. Your going to do just fine Chris. After he fills him full of arrows, give him a few musket balls too, just for good measure Paul D Nine months, one week, three days, 14 hours, 22 minutes and 53 seconds. 14229 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,565.06. Life saved: 7 weeks, 9 hours, 45 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Chris, you’re doing really well!  Glad you’ve got this one figured out.  You are really on your way. hugs, elle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Response:

chris_g: … >WHAT AM I THINKING???? >It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in >the world (to me anyway) … >OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep >it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you >hear me???   NO WAY!!!

… Way to go, Chris! Right here is where the battle is won. Sneak smokes are just one more of nicodemon’s lies. It would only work if the smoker could do it while keeping it from herself…because the only person you have to stay true to (in a quit) is yourself. Stay strong. You are well on your way —– Maddie, 5 months

Response:

I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will be gone alot. And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. WHAT AM I THINKING???? It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in the world (to me anyway) Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just one has to know." OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Ain’t that the truth?  Keep posting, sweetie….you’re going to be ok this time.  You seem to have a whole new attitude with this quit that is going to take you a long way. Sally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will be gone alot. And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. WHAT AM I THINKING???? It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in the world (to me anyway) Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just one has to know." OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Ain’t that the truth?  Keep posting, sweetie….you’re going to be ok this time.  You seem to have a whole new attitude with this quit that is going to take you a long way. Sally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? Oh lookey, here is one!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. > He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This > means he will be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies > about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted > without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the > most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > man in the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. > "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to > keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to > fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an > archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I > warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. > Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Not to worry Susan.  I’ve lived with a hunter long enough to be able to identify vermin. Chris Still 3W+

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. > Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? > Oh lookey, here is one!!!! > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! >> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. >> He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This >> means he will be gone alot. >> And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide >> it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies >> about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted >> without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the >> most.  Awwww……the freedom. >> WHAT AM I THINKING???? >> It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >> overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important >> man in the world (to me anyway) >> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. >> "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on >> OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to >> keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to >> fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! >> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And >> since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an >> archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I >> warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. >> Chris >> f3as3 >> Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 >> seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. >> Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

chris_g: … >WHAT AM I THINKING???? >It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in >the world (to me anyway) … >OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep >it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you >hear me???   NO WAY!!!

… Way to go, Chris! Right here is where the battle is won. Sneak smokes are just one more of nicodemon’s lies. It would only work if the smoker could do it while keeping it from herself…because the only person you have to stay true to (in a quit) is yourself. Stay strong. You are well on your way —– Maddie, 5 months

Response:

> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot.

I really like all this stuff you figure out to make the demon suffer. Your going to do just fine Chris. After he fills him full of arrows, give him a few musket balls too, just for good measure Paul D Nine months, one week, three days, 14 hours, 22 minutes and 53 seconds. 14229 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,565.06. Life saved: 7 weeks, 9 hours, 45 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Chris, you’re doing really well!  Glad you’ve got this one figured out.  You are really on your way. hugs, elle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit intact while he blew his.   During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I don’t want to smoke.   Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t too easy early on.  It is now. I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this time.  Just hang in there! *hugs* —    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie!        %%      (—-)     ( >__< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~ Quit since 11/01/2001 http://binniebee.com http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

Stickhead. Lee OF – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means > he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > it.  No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not > smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.   > This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.   > "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.   > Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale > and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Be strong Chris……I know you can do it.   You have been their for me quit buddies are for ya know……. I know you can do this.    I live alone, so I’m always answering to myself……  Be strong…. Nancy AKA Taterbug

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Not to worry Susan.  I’ve lived with a hunter long enough to be able to > identify vermin. > Chris > Still 3W+ > Hopefully he is out hunting trolls. > Hmmmm….I wonder where we could find one???? > Oh lookey, here is one!!!! > > You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > >> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket. > >> He hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This > >> means he will be gone alot. > >> And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide > >> it.  No covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies > >> about not smoking. I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted > >> without anyone knowing.  This is the time I enjoyed smoking the > >> most.  Awwww……the freedom. > >> WHAT AM I THINKING???? > >> It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > >> overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important > >> man in the world (to me anyway) > >> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. > >> "Just one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > >> OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to > >> keep it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to > >> fail.  Do you hear me???   NO WAY!!! > >> You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And > >> since you tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an > >> archery bale and let hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I > >> warn you…..he’s an excellent shot. > >> Chris > >> f3as3 > >> Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > >> seconds. 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. > >> Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Hum…….Trolling along are ya……

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You sure your husband isn’t out hunting beaver?  I used to hunt it and > it was quite a sport, lemme tell you! > I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing. This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> Be strong Chris……I know you can do it.   You have been their for me > quit buddies are for ya know…….

Thanks Nancy. I appreciate it. I think this is a turning point in my quit.  I realize that I want to be free of the addiction so bad that I am willing to put up with anything to get there.  I’m having some rough times but it’s OK…….I’m not going to let it break me.  There is WAY to much at stake. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> chris_g: > … >WHAT AM I THINKING???? >It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so >overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in >the world (to me anyway) > … >OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep >it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you >hear me???   NO WAY!!! > … > Way to go, Chris! Right here is where the battle is won. > Sneak smokes are just one more of nicodemon’s lies. It would only work if the > smoker could do it while keeping it from herself…because the only person you > have to stay true to (in a quit) is yourself.

Well said.  And so true. > Stay strong. You are well on your way

Thanks Maddie.  I mean it. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> —– > Maddie, 5 months

Response:

> Ain’t that the truth?  Keep posting, sweetie….you’re going to be ok this > time.  You seem to have a whole new attitude with this quit that is going to > take you a long way. > Sally

I am even surprizing myself a little.  I wonder where this "strong" me came from?!  Or maybe she was there the whole time, hiding behind an addiction. Chris 3W+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head. "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do > you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since > you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and > let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> I really like all this stuff you figure out to make the demon suffer.

Thanks Paul.  I’m having fun with it.  Your going to do just fine Chris. > After he fills him full of arrows, give him a few musket balls too, just for > good measure > Paul D

And then have him stuffed & put on my wall  :) What a trophy that would be! Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 3 minutes and 2 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.11. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nine months, one week, three days, 14 hours, 22 minutes and 53 seconds. > 14229 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,565.06. Life saved: 7 weeks, 9 hours, > 45 minutes. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 > seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 > day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> Chris, you’re doing really well!  Glad you’ve got this one figured out. You > are really on your way. > hugs, > elle

Oh gosh I hope so Elle.  I soooo want this. Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 4 minutes and 17 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.11. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he > will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. > No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing. This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway)

Response:

> By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D

I hope so Binnie!  You know how long I have been struggling with this. I have never quit during hunting season before.  It was always too easy to smoke.  In fact my Novender quit was due to the fact that hunting was drawing to a close & I wouldn’t be able to hide it anymore.  There have been so many factors this time that would normally sabotouge a quit and yet I’m still here.  You don’t suppose that this might actually be the one? Crossing my fingers Chris f3as3 Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 10 minutes and 9 seconds. 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.13. Life saved: 1 day, 15 hours, 5 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first > games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always > the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so > that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired > of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit > so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be > supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I > wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from > smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit > intact while he blew his. > During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without > which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and > work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ > months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) > time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an > apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see > my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and > my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere > three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I > don’t want to smoke. > Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s > work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were > kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke > and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know > you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early > days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t > too easy early on.  It is now. > I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this > time.  Just hang in there! > *hugs* > — >    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie! >        %% >      (—-) >     ( >__< ) >     ^^ ~~ ^^ >     ~f3as3~ > Quit since 11/01/2001 > http://binniebee.com > http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

Chris this quit is for you. I am a secret smoker during all my quits, I have now remorse about lying to myself. That’s all it is though, Lying. I am not normally telling untruths all the time so it must be the nicobitch dragging me down to its level in  the gutter. Stay vigilant Chris and this hold the nicobitch has will lesson, I know you can do it. Lovin your meter. J

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I married an avid hunter.  He hunts with bow & arrow, rifle, musket.  He > hunt deer, duck, bear.  Hunting season has just started.  This means he will > be gone alot. > And I will have ample opportunities to smoke without having to hide it. No > covering up the foul breath or smelly clothes.  No lies about not smoking. > I could be free to smoke as much as I wanted without anyone knowing.  This > is the time I enjoyed smoking the most.  Awwww……the freedom. > WHAT AM I THINKING???? > It’s not freedom.  It’s being a slave to an addiction that is so > overpowering that is would make me lie & deceive the most important man in > the world (to me anyway) > Hubby just left and the nicodemon is already rearing his ugly head.  "Just > one.   Just this weekend……then go back to your quit on > one has to know." > OH YEAH?  I’ll know.  This is MY quit.  I WANT it.  And I’m going to keep > it.  So get away.  There is NO WAY you are going to get me to fail.  Do you > hear me???   NO WAY!!! > You knew I am vulnerable when my hubby is on a hunting trip.  And since you > tried to use it against me I am going to tie you to an archery bale and let > hubby practice with his new hunting arrows.  I warn you…..he’s an > excellent shot. > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 20 minutes and 37 seconds. > 457 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.11. Life saved: 1 day, > 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

> > By Jove!  I think you’ve got it! :^D > I hope so Binnie!  You know how long I have been struggling with this. > I have never quit during hunting season before.  It was always too easy to > smoke.  In fact my Novender quit was due to the fact that hunting was > drawing to a close & I wouldn’t be able to hide it anymore.  There have been > so many factors this time that would normally sabotouge a quit and yet I’m > still here.  You don’t suppose that this might actually be the one?

Yes, I think that is exactly it, Chris! WTG, GF! :^D You know we’re all behind you! *hugs* BB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Crossing my fingers > Chris > f3as3 > Nicotine free for Three weeks, two days, 11 hours, 10 minutes and 9 seconds. > 469 gross smelling cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.13. Life saved: 1 day, > 15 hours, 5 minutes. > Seriously, Chris, Greg and I were in these who would break down first > games everytime we quit.  I was just more bullheaded, so I was always > the last to give in, but I got to looking forward to him giving in so > that we could go back to smoking again!  Finally I got it.  I was tired > of quitting for Greg.  Mainly, he was the one that kept wanting to quit > so badly and dragging me along with him because I wanted to be > supportive.  Then, I decided I was sick and tired of the game and I > wanted him to quit so badly (his father died of heart/lung disease from > smoking) that I would not play anymore.  I would sit here with my quit > intact while he blew his. > During that point and this point I have saved about $4,500, without > which we would not have been able to move back to Tenn, buy a house, and > work on the house instead of working for someone else for the last 2+ > months.  Fun days are over and it’s back to reality (working for others) > time again, but you know what?  We still have this house (instead of an > apartment in that HUGE, congested city), and we are in Tenn, where I see > my older son at least once a week, my parents at least once a month and > my granddaughter and younger son whenever I can manage to drive a mere > three hours, or talk them into it.  So, my quit is so worth all this.  I > don’t want to smoke. > Had my first experience today in a bar with everyone smoking (Greg’s > work get-together in a family environment PlayPlace, where there were > kids games, adult’s games, and bars).  I was shocked at all the smoke > and all the people smoking there!  But, I didn’t want to smoke. I know > you work in a bar.  I can’t imagine how hard that must be in the early > days of a quit.  But, living with a smoker, I can tell you that wasn’t > too easy early on.  It is now. > I’m so proud of you, Chris!  I think you really have it kicked this > time.  Just hang in there! > *hugs* > — >    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie! >        %% >      (—-) >     ( >__< ) >     ^^ ~~ ^^ >     ~f3as3~ > Quit since 11/01/2001 > http://binniebee.com > http://www.cyberdigs.com

–    BinnieBee –  A Proud Old Fogie!        %%      (—-)     ( >__< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~ Quit since 11/01/2001 http://binniebee.com http://www.cyberdigs.com

Response:

Local BMW dealership empty – Boycott Germany & France. Driver German & You Drive With Saddam

Question:

Drove past the local BMW dealership this Saturday.  Some bright boy put out German flags next to American flags.  The dealership was empty which is rare. Thank Gerhard Schroder & his henchman Joscka Fischer for there "protect Saddam" strategy.  Americans were cutting Germany some slack but pretty soon the Gold, Black and Red Flag is going to start looking like the WW2 nazi swastika flag. The left is demonizing SUVs and the car manufacturers are worried. German cars are next.

Response:

What is your point.  No free search or freedom of expression? Even if you believe Colin Powell or not, President Bush is still a cowboy wanting a fight.

Response:

> What is your point.  No free search or freedom of expression? > Even if you believe Colin Powell or not, President Bush is still a cowboy > wanting a fight.

Since you can not see beyond your hate for Bush how would you characterize Saddam? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> What is your point.  No free search or freedom of expression? > Even if you believe Colin Powell or not, President Bush is still a cowboy > wanting a fight.

It is much easier for the liberals to try to reduce world events down to something their less than educated constituancy can actually understand. They do not explain that most of the industrialized countries believe Saddam is a threat and that the UN Security Council voted unanimously for resolution 1441 that Saadm must cooperate and disarm. Instead, it is soundbites for the ignorant such as "wants to get even for much easier to spoon feed the masses something on a personal level since they do not understand world politics…..or history…… The Frog

Response:

Bush just needs some proof that there are chemical weapons or WMD in Iraq. Prior to such findings, Bush’s attention should be on giving the world evidence.  Then of course there will be full support. Canada will NOT support war in Iraq without UN approval.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What is your point.  No free search or freedom of expression? > Even if you believe Colin Powell or not, President Bush is still a cowboy > wanting a fight. > Since you can not see beyond your hate for Bush how would you characterize > Saddam?

Response:

I agree with my Canadian brothers.

Response:

Yeah–empty because nobody has money in this shitty-Bush economy!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Drove past the local BMW dealership this Saturday.  Some bright boy > put out German flags next to American flags.  The dealership was empty > which is rare. > Thank Gerhard Schroder & his henchman Joscka Fischer for there > "protect Saddam" strategy.  Americans were cutting Germany some slack > but pretty soon the Gold, Black and Red Flag is going to start looking > like the WW2 nazi swastika flag. > The left is demonizing SUVs and the car manufacturers are worried. > German cars are next.

Response:

> Drove past the local BMW dealership this Saturday.  Some bright boy > put out German flags next to American flags.  The dealership was empty > which is rare. > Thank Gerhard Schroder & his henchman Joscka Fischer for there > "protect Saddam" strategy.  Americans were cutting Germany some slack > but pretty soon the Gold, Black and Red Flag is going to start looking > like the WW2 nazi swastika flag. > The left is demonizing SUVs and the car manufacturers are worried. > German cars are next.

Good.  Maybe the prices will go down and I can finally afford the 540i I want.  Other than that I doubt you drove by a BMW dealship since they don’t locate in Mulletvilles.

Response:

> What is your point.  No free search or freedom of expression? > Even if you believe Colin Powell or not, President Bush is still a cowboy > wanting a fight. > It is much easier for the liberals to try to reduce world events down to > something their less than educated constituancy can actually understand.

"The Liberals"?  Your hatred is showing too.  How about you take a swag at defining that term…? > They do not explain that most of the industrialized countries believe Saddam > is a threat and that the UN Security Council voted unanimously for > resolution 1441 that Saadm must cooperate and disarm.

No one disputes this.  It’s the means of accomplishing it that there is a disagreement on.  Warhawks keep insisting that Saddam is an immediate threat that must be attacked with overwhelming force at once – without a coalition of allies, whereas cooler heads think that as long as the inspection process is going on, Saddam is effectively contained.  Our resources might be better directed towards finding and dealing with Al Qaeda, and calming regional fears rather than inflaming them. > Instead, it is soundbites for the ignorant such as "wants to get even for > much easier to spoon feed the masses something on a personal level since > they do not understand world politics…..or history……

Soundbites for the ignorant are a tactic that all politicians use, the right-wing included. All that being said, I’d bet you a thick roll of Euros that you don’t own a German vehicle, and are just trolling with your comments.

Response:

Bush is an idiot…can’t even find Iraq on the map let alone project any foreign policy..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What is your point.  No free search or freedom of expression? > Even if you believe Colin Powell or not, President Bush is still a cowboy > wanting a fight. > Since you can not see beyond your hate for Bush how would you characterize > Saddam?

Response:

guess bush’s next move will be to send in chemical weapons to Iraq and say that Saddam put them there….yep the cowboy is a puke no doubt about it. He needs this war for his daddy and will get one way or another……

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Bush just needs some proof that there are chemical weapons or WMD in Iraq. > Prior to such findings, Bush’s attention should be on giving the world > evidence.  Then of course there will be full support. > Canada will NOT support war in Iraq without UN approval. > > What is your point.  No free search or freedom of expression? > > Even if you believe Colin Powell or not, President Bush is still a > cowboy > > wanting a fight. > Since you can not see beyond your hate for Bush how would you characterize > Saddam?

Response:

For the root cacuse of much of the anti-western attiduted in the middle east and accusations of double standards – use a web search on’ UN security council resolutions’ and ‘Isreal’ ……or, just take a look at  http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special-edition/terrorism50/unreso… I don’t remember hearing much US support to inforce those resolutions – although plenty of support to supply the weapons to continue the occupation. For a race that suffered so much in the 30-30’s the isrealies certainly know how to deal it out to the Palestinians in last 40 years. Double standards – that’s the problem. MB content – see http://mbspy.bacosys.be/lebanon.htm steve

Response:

> Drove past the local BMW dealership this Saturday.  Some bright boy > put out German flags next to American flags.  The dealership was empty > which is rare. > Thank Gerhard Schroder & his henchman Joscka Fischer for there > "protect Saddam" strategy.  Americans were cutting Germany some slack > but pretty soon the Gold, Black and Red Flag is going to start looking > like the WW2 nazi swastika flag.

Then well do the same we did in WWII.  Steal their engineers and bring them over to work for us.  Can you imagine what the US auto market would become with a Von Braun equivalent working here?  Hell, I might just have to abandon my anti-american car buying in that case! :<) chad "German and Jap, but wanting Italian"

Response:

>It is much easier for the liberals to try to reduce world events down to >something their less than educated constituancy can actually understand.

The majority of Americans do not want a war with Iraq, at least based on the current situation and "evidence" produced by the war mongerers that Bush has surrounded himself with.  There is no way that all of this dissenting majority are liberals.   Besides, playing the intelligence card when you support Bush is quite short-sighted of you. Dick Schneiders

Response:

Regarding the USA…..Going  to war in Iraq without France is like going bear hunting without an accordion — David H

Response:

> Americans were cutting Germany some slack > but pretty soon the Gold, Black and Red Flag is going to start looking > like the WW2 nazi swastika flag.

F*ck off, you dumbass *PLONK* — please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow – Fruit Flies Like A Banana

Response:

"*PLONK*" Frank, don’t let them bait you…they even got the flag colour order wrong. DAS — — NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Americans were cutting Germany some slack > but pretty soon the Gold, Black and Red Flag is going to start looking > like the WW2 nazi swastika flag. > F*ck off, you dumbass > *PLONK* > — > please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact > Time Flies Like An Arrow – Fruit Flies Like A Banana

Response:

hey, take it easy….;-) > F*ck off, you dumbass > *PLONK*

cheers Bernhard

Response:

>I agree with my Canadian brothers.

If you’re my brother how come you didn’t send me a birthday present last year? — Richard Sexton  |  Mercedes Parts: http://parts.mbz.org http://www.mbz.org  Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org 250SE/C 300SD  Mercedes Classifieds: http://ads.mbz.org 2 x 280SE       Watch list: http://watches.list.mbz.org

Response:

> Drove past the local BMW dealership this Saturday.  Some bright boy > put out German flags next to American flags.  The dealership was empty > which is rare. > Thank Gerhard Schroder & his henchman Joscka Fischer for there > "protect Saddam" strategy.  Americans were cutting Germany some slack > but pretty soon the Gold, Black and Red Flag is going to start looking > like the WW2 nazi swastika flag. > The left is demonizing SUVs and the car manufacturers are worried. > German cars are next.

You can regurgitate the the Daschle/Hillary party line if you want. If you really want to know what’s going on, go visit these countries. Go to Bagdad, visit the middle east. It will shock the $hit out of you. Lets stop talking about who did what and it’s so and so’s fault. Talk to people who got out or anyone who has family over there. (been there, done that). No Bush ain’t perfect. At least he’s not afraid to pull the trigger like some liberals. Ex-military stationed in the middle east.

Response:

> Frank, don’t let them bait you…they even got the flag colour order > wrong.

You are right, and he is in my killfile. Peace, brother Frank — please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow – Fruit Flies Like A Banana

Response:

>Drove past the local BMW dealership this Saturday.  Some bright boy >put out German flags next to American flags.  The dealership was empty >which is rare. >Thank Gerhard Schroder & his henchman Joscka Fischer for there >"protect Saddam" strategy.  Americans were cutting Germany some slack >but pretty soon the Gold, Black and Red Flag is going to start looking >like the WW2 nazi swastika flag. >The left is demonizing SUVs and the car manufacturers are worried. >German cars are next.

Nah! Only those dolts who can’t think for themselves buy into the latest "So-and-so is Hitler" craze.                           | (hotmail acct is spam catcher)

Response:

> >I agree with my Canadian brothers. > If you’re my brother how come you didn’t send me a birthday present last year?

i think he did, i got it. it was bigger and a different colour then the previous years’

Response:

<snip> > Nah! Only those dolts who can’t think for themselves buy into the > latest "So-and-so is Hitler" craze.

<snip> When we all know that Saddam is worse than Hitler. — John Starrett "Those who cannot remember their past lives are condemned to repeat them."

Response:

> What is your point.  No free search or freedom of expression? > Even if you believe Colin Powell or not, President Bush is still a cowboy > wanting a fight.

How about a loose cannon.

Response:

Bad Drivers Are Everywhere

Question:

Sorry, I should have put OTP on this. Gwen

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->How To Tell Where A Driver Is From! >1. One hand on wheel, one hand on horn: CHICAGO >2. One hand on wheel, one finger out window: NEW YORK >3. One hand on wheel, one finger out window, cutting across all lanes >   of traffic: NEW JERSEY >4. One hand on wheel, one hand on newspaper, foot solidly on >   accelerator: BOSTON >5. One hand on wheel, one hand on nonfat double decaf cappuccino, >   cradling cell phone, brick on accelerator, gun in lap: LOS ANGELES >6. Both hands on wheel, eyes shut, both feet on brake, quivering in >   terror: OHIO, but driving in CALIFORNIA >7. Waving at everyone that you pass, eating a moon pie, sipping an RC, >   smiling and chewing and talking to yourself. TENNESSEE >8. One hand on 12 oz. Double shot latte, one knee on wheel, cradling >   cell phone, foot on brake, mind on radio game, banging head on >   steering wheel while stuck in traffic: SEATTLE >9. One hand on wheel, one hand on hunting rifle, alternating between >   both feet being on the accelerator and both feet on brake, throwing >   McDonald’s bag out the window: TEXAS >10. Four-wheel drive pick-up truck, shotgun mounted in rear window, >    beer cans on floor, squirrel tails attached to antenna: ALABAMA >11. Two hands gripping wheel, blue hair barely visible above >    windshield, driving 35 on the Interstate in the left lane with the >    left blinker on: FLORIDA >12. Knee up against steering wheel, one hand on Tim Horton’s coffee >    cup, cell phone in ear, accelerator to the floor, applying >    makeup/doing crossword puzzle/reading morning Free Press, >    knocking down orange barrels, changing lanes without turn signals: >    MICHIGAN

Hey, I live in Baltimore and I’m offending that we’re not on the list. Let me add…. if one hand is at 3, and the other is on a 9mm, then you know he’s from Baltimore. –Brian

Response:

How To Tell Where A Driver Is From! 1. One hand on wheel, one hand on horn: CHICAGO 2. One hand on wheel, one finger out window: NEW YORK 3. One hand on wheel, one finger out window, cutting across all lanes    of traffic: NEW JERSEY 4. One hand on wheel, one hand on newspaper, foot solidly on    accelerator: BOSTON 5. One hand on wheel, one hand on nonfat double decaf cappuccino,    cradling cell phone, brick on accelerator, gun in lap: LOS ANGELES 6. Both hands on wheel, eyes shut, both feet on brake, quivering in    terror: OHIO, but driving in CALIFORNIA 7. Waving at everyone that you pass, eating a moon pie, sipping an RC,    smiling and chewing and talking to yourself. TENNESSEE 8. One hand on 12 oz. Double shot latte, one knee on wheel, cradling    cell phone, foot on brake, mind on radio game, banging head on    steering wheel while stuck in traffic: SEATTLE 9. One hand on wheel, one hand on hunting rifle, alternating between    both feet being on the accelerator and both feet on brake, throwing    McDonald’s bag out the window: TEXAS 10. Four-wheel drive pick-up truck, shotgun mounted in rear window,     beer cans on floor, squirrel tails attached to antenna: ALABAMA 11. Two hands gripping wheel, blue hair barely visible above     windshield, driving 35 on the Interstate in the left lane with the     left blinker on: FLORIDA 12. Knee up against steering wheel, one hand on Tim Horton’s coffee     cup, cell phone in ear, accelerator to the floor, applying     makeup/doing crossword puzzle/reading morning Free Press,     knocking down orange barrels, changing lanes without turn signals:     MICHIGAN — Words are windows to the heart.

Response:

Tucson Killings

Question:

will do, my friend….donnah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > We just had a Nursing student go off the deep end today. He walked into > a classroom and killed two instructors that had given him a flunking > grade and then he killed himself. Its a real mess. I got ahold of Lucy > and she is walking home. Its impossible to get anywhere close to campus > right now. This one struck pretty close to home as I have friends who > teach at the hospital. > As a culture we have gone completely insane. Way too many people seem to > think using a gun is a solution. Very depressing and sad day here in the > ol’ Pueblo. Students are devastated over the incident and its going to > take a lot of follow up counseling to get folks back to normal. > Please keep us in your thoughts and prayers today. > johnie

Response:

> As a culture we have gone completely insane. Way too many people seem to > think using a gun is a solution. Very depressing and sad day here in the > ol’ Pueblo. Students are devastated over the incident and its going to > take a lot of follow up counseling to get folks back to normal.

I was just hearing this on NPR.  Another very sad situation.  We need to help more people learn effective ways of dealing with frustration, disappointment and angre, but I just don’t know how we do it on a large scale.  We can just > Please keep us in your thoughts and prayers today.

Done. — Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. – Aristotle

Response:

Thanks Harvey, I don’t know the answers, I don’t care for guns although my husband is a collector and does go hunting. I just see kids, and adults to be fair, in the workplace who don’t have a clue as to honoring one’s word, how to live up to making a commitment and following through.  Owning up to one’s mistakes is too much to expect.  We have all gotten too lax, too  tolerant and too understanding.  A little discipline never hurt anyone and usually makes a better person out of them. Everyone needs guidlines. Lyn > Hi Lyn,   I sure like the way you think and express yourself.  Is there > a price for children being raised without accountability, without > responsibility, are we seeing the answer, living with the answer? When > you blame the gun, are you condoning that kind of thinking, kind of way > of life? > Harv

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Response:

> As a culture we have gone completely insane. Way too many people seem to > think using a gun is a solution. Very depressing and sad day here in the > ol’ Pueblo. Students are devastated over the incident and its going to > take a lot of follow up counseling to get folks back to normal.

I talked with my parents in AZ and they were pretty upset about it also.  I wonder how much of this is copy cat shootings?   — Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi Joyce, > I won’t get into the First Amendment, but the problem lies with people not > accepting responsibility for their actions.  Example, the kid in OK who killed some > people because a neighbour cautioned him about his driving.  Adults don’t bear > responsibility for events in their lives, it’s always someone elses fault. > Children are not brought up to take responsibility for their actions by their > parents and the schools have their hands tied as far as disciplining the students. > It’s time some responsibility was brought back into our lives.  More laws won’t > solve anything.  We have good laws on the books now that are not being enforced for > many reasons.  Taking away guns won’t solve anything. > Lyn  ( in Tucson)

Hi Lyn,   I sure like the way you think and express yourself.  Is there a price for children being raised without accountability, without responsibility, are we seeing the answer, living with the answer? When you blame the gun, are you condoning that kind of thinking, kind of way of life? Harv

Response:

I knew I should have kept my big mouth shut. I do believe Education and Parental and Adult responsibility is the key. My father taught me to have a healthy respect for any type of weapon. I did mis-speak and want to correct it before this goes any further. I said in the earlier post…… "I do not believe that people should be able to buy game hunting weapons and even certain kinds of hand-guns with safety mechanisms like trigger locks installed." It should have read…" I do believe that people should be able to buy game hunting weapons and perhaps on a limited basis ‘handguns’ if they have good well thought out safety devices so they could not be used by a child or a stranger. SORRY ABOUT THAT MISREAD…..It was the opposite of what I meant to say. I can not voice strongly enough that EDUCATION and parental responsibility is the place to begin. johnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Joyce, >         It is sweet that someone would consider me beloved in any group >bg< but I > consider you a very much loved member of this NG. I think we are in agreement on > guns. I certainly don’t want to start a thread on gun laws. Its too political and > pushes way too many buttons. I am of the mind-set and have been for many years > that a strict gun registration program be put in place and that guns that are > built for the sole purpose of killing people (particularly semi-automatics) be > destroyed and banned from production. This would be a good start. I do not believe > that people should be able to buy game hunting weapons and even certain kinds of > hand-guns with safety mechanisms like trigger locks installed. I also believe that > the screening process needs to be much tougher for people wanting to buy guns. I > will not comment too much further because its a rocky, rough road to start a > discussion on. > I WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN A THREAD ABOUT GUNS because I think it creates too many > ill feelings. I know there are many people here that do not believe guns should be > made harder to get and I do remember the last time this issue came up. It ended > badly. There is no need to go there again so I hope no one will. PLEASE. My > original post was there because it affected me so closely and directly. It was one > more horrible tragedy and it was carried out by someone that could have gotten a > gun no matter how tough a gun registration program could be. I do know that there > is something about American culture that play a large role in the problem. There > are a few European country’s with liberal gun laws but very low homicide rates. > The key appears to be EDUCATION. We have to change the way we think about guns as > they relate to problem solving and we have to do it one generation at a time until > we have a country that doesn’t associate PROBLEM SOLVING with THE USE OF GUNS. > There, I opened my big mouth and I hope it doesn’t start a thread we don’t need. > The world is stressful enough without us debating GUN CONTROL. > Joyce, you see, I think we are probably in agreement in most instances about gun > laws. Im sorry if my post was misleading in any way. I do not own a gun and most > if not all of my friends do not own guns. I was also raised in an environment > where carrying a gun was common. I kept a shotgun in my car as early as age 14 and > used one on the farm as early as age 10. My exposure to guns and their uses is > extensive. > And don’t forget that I consider you a beloved member of this group.>g< I just > hope we didn’t start a mini-flame war. There is just so much tragedy in the world > right now its overwhelming. God help us all. > johnie > >Way too many people seem to > >think using a gun is a solution. > Is that any surprise when we can’t seem to get a sensible national gun law > passed?  Johnie, I know you are a cherished member of this NG, while I am only > a sometime visitor.  I am thinking about the students there, certainly.  And I > am wondering when we can all come to our senses and realize that we need to > disarm our population. > The right to bear arms was rational back when we were a small settlement of > farmers and small businesses, not even a nation, and we were about to embark on > a rebellion against what was then the most powerful empire in the world.  They > were the bullies then.  But they never turned their guns against their own > people. > It is not rational now.  We are a different kind of society, open to one and > all.  There is too much sorrow in every newspaper, on every newscast.  I have > lived a long time and only a few of my years were during peacetime.  That > dismays me.  I live in a large city, but death by gunfire is not restricted to > large cities. > Johnie, I am not cross with you.  Please don’t misunderstand me.  I am just so > distraught about how we seem to be killing ourselves over nothing at all. > I’ll get over it, or maybe not.  I would prefer not.  I have still not gotten > over the desecration of my beloved city, New York. > Joyce

Response:

Joyce,         It is sweet that someone would consider me beloved in any group >bg< but I consider you a very much loved member of this NG. I think we are in agreement on guns. I certainly don’t want to start a thread on gun laws. Its too political and pushes way too many buttons. I am of the mind-set and have been for many years that a strict gun registration program be put in place and that guns that are built for the sole purpose of killing people (particularly semi-automatics) be destroyed and banned from production. This would be a good start. I do not believe that people should be able to buy game hunting weapons and even certain kinds of hand-guns with safety mechanisms like trigger locks installed. I also believe that the screening process needs to be much tougher for people wanting to buy guns. I will not comment too much further because its a rocky, rough road to start a discussion on. I WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN A THREAD ABOUT GUNS because I think it creates too many ill feelings. I know there are many people here that do not believe guns should be made harder to get and I do remember the last time this issue came up. It ended badly. There is no need to go there again so I hope no one will. PLEASE. My original post was there because it affected me so closely and directly. It was one more horrible tragedy and it was carried out by someone that could have gotten a gun no matter how tough a gun registration program could be. I do know that there is something about American culture that play a large role in the problem. There are a few European country’s with liberal gun laws but very low homicide rates. The key appears to be EDUCATION. We have to change the way we think about guns as they relate to problem solving and we have to do it one generation at a time until we have a country that doesn’t associate PROBLEM SOLVING with THE USE OF GUNS. There, I opened my big mouth and I hope it doesn’t start a thread we don’t need. The world is stressful enough without us debating GUN CONTROL. Joyce, you see, I think we are probably in agreement in most instances about gun laws. Im sorry if my post was misleading in any way. I do not own a gun and most if not all of my friends do not own guns. I was also raised in an environment where carrying a gun was common. I kept a shotgun in my car as early as age 14 and used one on the farm as early as age 10. My exposure to guns and their uses is extensive. And don’t forget that I consider you a beloved member of this group.>g< I just hope we didn’t start a mini-flame war. There is just so much tragedy in the world right now its overwhelming. God help us all. johnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Way too many people seem to >think using a gun is a solution. > Is that any surprise when we can’t seem to get a sensible national gun law > passed?  Johnie, I know you are a cherished member of this NG, while I am only > a sometime visitor.  I am thinking about the students there, certainly.  And I > am wondering when we can all come to our senses and realize that we need to > disarm our population. > The right to bear arms was rational back when we were a small settlement of > farmers and small businesses, not even a nation, and we were about to embark on > a rebellion against what was then the most powerful empire in the world.  They > were the bullies then.  But they never turned their guns against their own > people. > It is not rational now.  We are a different kind of society, open to one and > all.  There is too much sorrow in every newspaper, on every newscast.  I have > lived a long time and only a few of my years were during peacetime.  That > dismays me.  I live in a large city, but death by gunfire is not restricted to > large cities. > Johnie, I am not cross with you.  Please don’t misunderstand me.  I am just so > distraught about how we seem to be killing ourselves over nothing at all. > I’ll get over it, or maybe not.  I would prefer not.  I have still not gotten > over the desecration of my beloved city, New York. > Joyce

Response:

>Please keep us in your thoughts and prayers today. >johnie

Mannnnnnnnnnn! How sad. Will for sure keep you all in thoughts and prayers. Rose

Response:

Hi Joyce, I won’t get into the First Amendment, but the problem lies with people not accepting responsibility for their actions.  Example, the kid in OK who killed some people because a neighbour cautioned him about his driving.  Adults don’t bear responsibility for events in their lives, it’s always someone elses fault. Children are not brought up to take responsibility for their actions by their parents and the schools have their hands tied as far as disciplining the students. It’s time some responsibility was brought back into our lives.  More laws won’t solve anything.  We have good laws on the books now that are not being enforced for many reasons.  Taking away guns won’t solve anything. Lyn  ( in Tucson) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Way too many people seem to >think using a gun is a solution. > Is that any surprise when we can’t seem to get a sensible national gun law > passed?  Johnie, I know you are a cherished member of this NG, while I am only > a sometime visitor.  I am thinking about the students there, certainly.  And I > am wondering when we can all come to our senses and realize that we need to > disarm our population. > The right to bear arms was rational back when we were a small settlement of > farmers and small businesses, not even a nation, and we were about to embark on > a rebellion against what was then the most powerful empire in the world.  They > were the bullies then.  But they never turned their guns against their own > people. > It is not rational now.  We are a different kind of society, open to one and > all.  There is too much sorrow in every newspaper, on every newscast.  I have > lived a long time and only a few of my years were during peacetime.  That > dismays me.  I live in a large city, but death by gunfire is not restricted to > large cities. > Johnie, I am not cross with you.  Please don’t misunderstand me.  I am just so > distraught about how we seem to be killing ourselves over nothing at all. > I’ll get over it, or maybe not.  I would prefer not.  I have still not gotten > over the desecration of my beloved city, New York. > Joyce

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Response:

Johnnie, It’s already made the Phoenix news.  Hard to believe that the quiet town I grew up in has been subjected to that kind of violence.   Anne AAC/AAF/AFBV62.0844.AZ http://www.tckworld.com/opfoot

Response:

>Way too many people seem to >think using a gun is a solution.

Is that any surprise when we can’t seem to get a sensible national gun law passed?  Johnie, I know you are a cherished member of this NG, while I am only a sometime visitor.  I am thinking about the students there, certainly.  And I am wondering when we can all come to our senses and realize that we need to disarm our population. The right to bear arms was rational back when we were a small settlement of farmers and small businesses, not even a nation, and we were about to embark on a rebellion against what was then the most powerful empire in the world.  They were the bullies then.  But they never turned their guns against their own people. It is not rational now.  We are a different kind of society, open to one and all.  There is too much sorrow in every newspaper, on every newscast.  I have lived a long time and only a few of my years were during peacetime.  That dismays me.  I live in a large city, but death by gunfire is not restricted to large cities. Johnie, I am not cross with you.  Please don’t misunderstand me.  I am just so distraught about how we seem to be killing ourselves over nothing at all. I’ll get over it, or maybe not.  I would prefer not.  I have still not gotten over the desecration of my beloved city, New York. Joyce

Response:

We just had a Nursing student go off the deep end today. He walked into a classroom and killed two instructors that had given him a flunking grade and then he killed himself. Its a real mess. I got ahold of Lucy and she is walking home. Its impossible to get anywhere close to campus right now. This one struck pretty close to home as I have friends who teach at the hospital. As a culture we have gone completely insane. Way too many people seem to think using a gun is a solution. Very depressing and sad day here in the ol’ Pueblo. Students are devastated over the incident and its going to take a lot of follow up counseling to get folks back to normal. Please keep us in your thoughts and prayers today. johnie

Response: