.338 Deer Load

Question:

W. Campbell asks: Recently purchased two cases of 3" steel fiocchi shells, rated rated at 1475 fps.  Problem….. sometimes they don’t feed far enough into the Beneli semi auto to get completely closed, and therefore the gun will not shoot unless you manually push the receiver closed.  Have had them stick in Remington 870 express too.  Never had a problem with either gun before these shells.  Anyone else have comments on the Fiocchi shells.? Yes.  I have experienced exactly the same problem in all my repeaters. They seem to work okay in my double guns though.  It’s like the flange is too thick or something.  I picked up a few boxes of Fiocchi empty hulls after a big dove shoot a  while back and reloaded some.  After experiencing the problem you described, I disposed of the remaining Fiocchi hulls.  I seem to recall having read earlier on this or other newsgroups of other folks experiencing this problem with Fiocchi shotshells. Dave LeGrande GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Walt wrote, > Never had a problem with either gun before these shells.  Anyone > else > have comments on the Fiocchi shells.? > . > on the Fiocchi shells.?

*-Walt, My dove/quail hunting buddy gave me a fistful of 16 ga. Fiocchi shells that would not cycle in his Win/pump. I tried them in my Mossberg 500 and had the same problem. I just made sure the first shell in the chamber was a Fiocchi until I used them up. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I would like to know the answer to this question myself. I have shot a number of deer with my 338 using 225 BarnseX, 235 Failsafe, 225 Speer BTSP and 250 Sierra GK. Pretty much in all cases when it came to skinning the deer, all my buddies say to me, Reg, you gotta get a smaller gun for deer. Especially when hitting a bone, the trauma on the exit wound side is considerably huge compared to the smaller caliber rifles. I think that next year I am going to go back to my 3006 like they suggest, but I sure like that 338 and if you do, well you will probably just have to deal with the damage. One bullet I would like to try which I loaded but never used on anything yet is the BarnseX 170gr. The main problem I have with this load is that the trajectory compared to the rest. It shoots about 4 feet higher at 300 yards which is to much to justify sighting my gun for it. Happy Hunting

> Mark- > I would stick with the 250 gr. bullet.  I use a .338 for black-tail

hunting on the islands in SE Alaska where there is a risk of running into a brown bear.  I tried 210 and 225 gr. bullets and had a lot of meat damage so went back to the 250.  Range is not an issue here.  Shots are usually less than 100 yds. > Phil > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Depending on range downloading the 338 to 33 Winchester velocities and using the Hornady 33 Winchester bullet works for me.  Ranges in the area where I hunt are maxed at about 75 yards so I don’t feel uncomfortable with this loading at all. LouisB Just an opinion of course. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

This reply preceeds the post it referrs to. No brownies in N. Minnesota but I used a .338 Win. mag. w/275gr. Speer handload on a whitetail doe, (boiler room hit, jumped once and piled up, dead as a mackerel) with very little bloodshot meat.  That big slug just doesn’t open up that much on a 125-150lb. animal – actually a good whitetail load if you don’t my Ruger 77) here if I ever get that once in a lifetime Minnesota moose tag.   >  I use a .338 for black-tail >hunting on the islands in SE Alaska where there is a risk of running into a >brown bear.  I tried 210 and 225 gr. bullets and had a lot of meat damage so >went back to the 250.  Range is not an issue here.  Shots are usually less >than 100 yds. > Phil

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I have a .338 Win Mag that I dearly love and have had good sucsees on elk with. I want to try it on mule deer next year and am trying to work up a good handload for it. My favorite elk load is a 250 grain Partition. I am thinking about the 200 gr Ballistic tip or trying one of the lighter Barnes  X bullets. Any ideas? Should I just stick with the 250 gr Partition load? It shoots great in my gun and I have the ultimate confidence on elk with this load. I know a .338 is overkill for deer but I really like the gun and I shoot it well so I think it would be fun to work up something just for deer. Mark Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I have a .338 Win Mag that I dearly love and have had good sucsees on elk with. I want to try it on mule deer next year and am trying to work up a good handload for it. My favorite elk load is a 250 grain Partition. I am thinking about the 200 gr Ballistic tip or trying one of the lighter Barnes  X bullets. > Any ideas? Should I just stick with the 250 gr Partition load? It shoots great in my gun and I have the ultimate confidence on elk with this load. I know a .338 is overkill for deer but I really like the gun and I shoot it well so I think it would be fun to work up something just for deer.

Certainly using the 250 gr. load on deer will work fine and will not cause excessive meat damage (certainly no more than any other popular magnum cartridge).  About the only thing you give up is speed which translates to point blank range but even then, the 338 is a pretty efficient cartridge (for a magnum) and I’m not sure you’ll gain much in the way of point blank range by going to a 200 gr. load.  Still, I like the 180 gr. Ballistic Tip in .338 and imagine it would produce a very flat shooting handload that, had I my own .338, I would  just have to try. Regards, Rick Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Mark- I would stick with the 250 gr. bullet.  I use a .338 for black-tail hunting on the islands in SE Alaska where there is a risk of running into a brown bear.  I tried 210 and 225 gr. bullets and had a lot of meat damage so went back to the 250.  Range is not an issue here.  Shots are usually less than 100 yds. Phil Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Stay a heavily constructed bullet.  Ballistic tips may blow up and cause a lot of meat damage at close range.  I’d use a 210 Nosler. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

i use the Barnes X 185 gr. boattail in my .338 win mag…..i really like the way it works on Deer and Caribou. Bill http://www.angelfire.com/ny3/BILLNY/index.html Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I have a .338 Win Mag that I dearly love and have had good sucsees on elk with. I want to try it on mule deer next year and am trying to work up a good handload for it. My favorite elk load is a 250 grain Partition. I am thinking about the 200 gr Ballistic tip or trying one of the lighter Barnes  X bullets. > Any ideas? Should I just stick with the 250 gr Partition load? It shoots great in my gun and I have the ultimate confidence on elk with this load. I know a .338 is overkill for deer but I really like the gun and I shoot it well so I think it would be fun to work up something just for deer. > Mark

The 250 grain partition will do less damage to the meat, but you do give up some trajectory.   If you’re shooting far in open country, the 180 grain ballistic tip works pretty well.  (I used one up close and it was kinda messy, but mostly because I clipped the bottom of the spine … bone fragments did most of the damage.)   My favorite all around bullet for the .338 was the 210 grain Barnes X boat tail. Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>I have a .338 Win Mag that I dearly love and have had good sucsees on elk with. I want to try it on mule deer next year and am trying to work up a good handload for it. My favorite elk load is a 250 grain Partition. I am thinking about the 200 gr Ballistic tip or trying one of the lighter Barnes  X bullets. >Any ideas? Should I just stick with the 250 gr Partition load? It shoots great in my gun and I have the ultimate confidence on elk with this load. I know a .338 is overkill for deer but I really like the gun and I shoot it well so I think it would be fun to work up something just for deer.

I’ve never shot a .338, but I’m familiar with its ballistics. I would use a round nose FMJ – that would just blow a 1-inch hole going clear through, without wasting much meat at all, and the deer would NOT go very far with a lung shot, or he’d just drop in its tracks if it were shoulder-to-shoulder.  I had a friend once that swore by using his .458WM on whitetails, with exactly this result. Ron M. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I have had good luck with both 200gr hornady and 210gr nosler partition I have bought but yet to load or shoot 200 nosler ballistatip I picked them over the 180’s because of the better BC and SD. But any way you slice it if you hit a bone (other than ribs) on a deer with a 338 you will damage lots of meat. The big problem is that if you use a tougher bullet to minimize meat damage you run the risk of not getting enough expansion on ribshots. Before you buy. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Just a not from past experience.  If you must use a ballistic tip bullet make sure you use one of the newer ones designed for hunting big game. Nosler makes a new line that is supposed to delay expansion so you make a better wound channel and get better kills on the big game.      I took a follow up shot last year for a friend of mine that swore ballistic tips in his .270 would kill deer effectively.  When we got up to the deer after my head shot with a 100 gr Speer BTSP, we found that his .270 bullet had exploded on one of the ribs, never even getting into the body cavity.  The shot was perfect but the bullet just did not penetrate. Trouble ain’t trouble for anyone that is ready for it! Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I would be very skeptical of advice from someone who has never done it. I have shot a number of deer size animals (mostly impala and warthogs) in Africa with a 250 grain roundnose (Barnes) solid from a .338 Win Mag at a muzzle velocity of 2667 FPS.  It doesn’t "just blow a 1-inch hole going clear through" at all.  The exit wound is extremely small and the animals went a long way.  I used them to do as little damage as possible to the meat, as this was for camp supplies.  I went back to 250 grain Swifts because of the long tracking jobs.  Very little more meat was damaged, and the critters didn’t go very far. My suggestion would be to stick with the 250 grain Partitions so you only have one trajectory to remember.  Otherwise, the 225 Partition would be a good choice.  I, personally, prefer Swift A-Frames, as they are a little "harder" than the Nosler Partitions, as they nearly always exit leaving a better blood trail if some tracking is required. Good hunting, Jim Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Recently purchased two cases of 3" steel fiocchi shells, rated at 1475 fps.  Problem….. sometimes they don’t feed far enough into the Beneli semi auto to get completely closed, and therefore the gun will not shoot unless you manually push the receiver closed. Have had them stick in Remington 870 express too. Never had a problem with either gun before these shells.  Anyone else have comments on the Fiocchi shells.? . on the Fiocchi shells.? . Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Get it straight about the NRA.

Question:

>I say again if there is a war, you can choose either side or sit on the >sidelines.

So it is your contention that the US single-handedly won WWII. Or were there perhaps more than just 2 sides? Perhaps several diverse groups working together can accomplish more than one smaller, but united, force? > In this war we have the NRA on one side and the ARFs and >anti-gun people on the other. You may not *like* how the sides have been >drawn up, but it is so. Accept it.

Wrong. There are pro-RKBA people one one side, and anti-RKBA people on the other. NRA does not represent all pro-RKBA people, nor could it possibly do so. We are not a homogeneous society as Americans, or as gun-owners. Accept that. >When the anti-gun and anti-hunting LA Times, NY Times and Washington Post >regard the NRA as the enemy, it is with good reason. The NRA has been >effective. What have the other and smaller organizations done? I used to >support them all, but not any more.

        No one is doubting NRAs name recognition, just this exclusivist attitude that it’s NRA or nothing. If you doubt the achievments of any of the other pro-RKBA groups, you are apparently not well versed in their efforts. Feel free to visit their web sites and learn about their contributions. >Join the NRA, work inside to have your point of view heard.

No single organization can represent all of the gun-owners in this diverse nation. Nor should it try to. My point of view clashes with NRA leadership. Either I won’t get my way, or they won’t get theirs. > When any of >you NRA detractors say anything derogatory about the NRA, the antis pick >it up as proof they are right.

I am not sayinganything derogatory about NRA. I am saying they are not the only pro-RKBA organization. And that is a good thing. > If we had 30 million NRA members, thisng >would be very much different…jim dodd >San Diego

But you don’t. And one of the many reasons is that NRA is not for everyone. Some gun owners don’t like it. You can question their reasons all day long. You can claim their views are invalid.                 But the bottom line is that some of us will not give NRA our  support. Do you want us to fight beside you, or sit back and watch you lose? -Don

Response:

Don writes:

"Good advice, why don’t you follow it? There are plenty of other pro-gun organizations who work just as hard, if not harder, as NRA.  The implication that anyone who won’t join NRA is fighting on the side of the antis is not only untrue, it hurts the pro-gun cause alot more than having 7 or 8 different pro-gun groups ever will." I say again if there is a war, you can choose either side or sit on the sidelines. In this war we have the NRA on one side and the ARFs and anti-gun people on the other. You may not *like* how the sides have been drawn up, but it is so. Accept it. When the anti-gun and anti-hunting LA Times, NY Times and Washington Post regard the NRA as the enemy, it is with good reason. The NRA has been effective. What have the other and smaller organizations done? I used to support them all, but not any more. Join the NRA, work inside to have your point of view heard. When any of you NRA detractors say anything derogatory about the NRA, the antis pick it up as proof they are right. If we had 30 million NRA members, thisng would be very much different…jim dodd San Diego

Response:

     > . . .  snip      >The fact that the vast majority of hunters are not members of      >the NRA is a frightening example of the indifference, apathy, and      >misinformation that is plaguing this country.      >      >-Everett Logan Actually, Everett, I interpret this as not apathy (I know I am not apathetic about my guns being taken away) but more dissatisfaction with the NRA.  I have been an NRA member off and on over the years. (Admittedly, not right now.) Each time I join, and start getting correspondence from them, I do not feel like they are representing me. In fact, a lot of what I see in their magazine frightens me and it is easy to see why a lot of Americans see them as extremists and supporters of covert antigovernment groups.  PLEASE DO NOT MISINTERPRET THIS TO BE MY OPINION.  I do think that is how a lot (majority?) of American citizens, and certainly citizens of other countries see the NRA. I think the NRA is inherently a good organization.  I think they need to go back to the hunters, and other shooting non-members and find out why they don’t belong.  Instead, they choose to berate them for not seeing things their way. If it were just a few gun owners, that weren’t members, I’d call it apathy.  When it becomes many, and most of them were former members, there is a problem that needs to be fixed, and it is not necessarily with the non-members. Pete Githens>> Pete your part of the problem and not the solution.  While you would want the NRA to correct all of its problems to please your perspective, they are fighting tooth and nail to see to it you still have a gun to hunt with.  Lets make that correct.  I, an active NRA member and others with me, are fighting tooth and nail for you to still have a gun to hunt with.  I am the NRA.  I see to it that congressmen are afraid to propose more gun legislation.  I send them nasty letters.  I send my money to the NRA so that they can lean on legislators.  Talks cheap.  You are part of the casualty list in the war of divide and conquer from the anti’s on the wrong side.  The "organization" will never be able to please every one and limit themselves to what all of the those dissatisfied individuals think is appropriate levels of action.  When you have no gun rights left then maybe you will rethink your position. The NRA is the only strong national level organization that has some pull in congress to slow down the onslaught of the left and Slick Willie.  You think Sarah Brady has any intention of slowing down and not coming after every gun you have and every type of bullet you buy or load??? We need to look past the small squabbling and realize we are in a fight for our very rights.  Don’t look at the NRA, look at the facts of what Clinton, Brady, Schumer and the other anti gun advocates have been doing.  If you wait until they want your last hunting rifle or shotgun to rethink your position, you will be way too late.  And all the other people that you helped to dissuade from joining the fight will be in you boat with you. Stop looking at the problems and look at the fact that we NRA supporters are still working damn hard towards the solution.  The best perspective to have is to support the NRA and be part of it and work towards the day when the only thing that has to be on the agenda are subjects of good hunting, who won the latest national competitions, and new types of ammo loads to use!!! Get smart and do something to help the cause, not badmouth the people who are trying.  Gary Molle

Response:

>Get smart and do something to help the cause, not badmouth the people >who are trying.  Gary Molle

Good advice, why don’t you follow it? There are plenty of other pro-gun organizations who work just as hard, if not harder, as NRA.  The implication that anyone who won’t join NRA is fighting on the side of the antis is not only untrue, it hurts the pro-gun cause alot more than having 7 or 8 different pro-gun groups ever will. -Don

Response:

Remington 700 Reliability

Question:

> I will be in the market this year for a rifle to use for hunting and am > considering purchasing (NIB) the Remington 700 Mountain Rifle (.270 Win.). > After reading the many threads concerning the AD reported by CBS, I am > wondering if this a wise purchase. I understand that the trigger was > modified/ill mantained on that particular rifle. I also read many posts > reporting similar ADs. I also read many posts touting the reliability of the > 700. I understand poor mantainence and/or poor adjustment of the trigger could > cause an unsafe condition and the importance of having a qualified gunsmith > perform any trigger adjustments. So is the 700 a wise choice?

I am troubled by the reports concerning Remington.  We have been seeing several first hand reports in this group and the guns group from guy who say they had the guns fire when moving the safeties.  Now this is a small percentage of all the Remington 700s sold, but I have not seen any similar allegations concerning Brownings, Winchesters, Rugers, Savages, etc.  A safety has to be absolutely safe on a high powered rifle since there is no place to point it in a people area safely except in a basement.  Such a gun will penetrate too many house walls in a neighborhood to say it must simply be pointed down range and all will be safe. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I will be in the market this year for a rifle to use for hunting and am > considering purchasing (NIB) the Remington 700 Mountain Rifle (.270 Win.). > After reading the many threads concerning the AD reported by CBS, I am > wondering if this a wise purchase. I understand that the trigger was > modified/ill mantained on that particular rifle. I also read many posts > reporting similar ADs. I also read many posts touting the reliability of the > 700. I understand poor mantainence and/or poor adjustment of the trigger could > cause an unsafe condition and the importance of having a qualified gunsmith > perform any trigger adjustments. So is the 700 a wise choice? > TIA > Stephan

I have had a few 700’s — never a failure. If you like it get it! I like the model 70 Winchester better, but not because of the 700 is bad. I just like the looks of the Winchester better. If you are looking for a light rifle, then look at the Remington Model 7 SS, in .308 Win. It can really take bad weather, never rust, or have the stock warp. Put on a Leupold compact 2-7 scope and you are ready for anything less that big bears. As a note, the Model 7 has the same trigger and safety as the Model 700. Regards,   Steve Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I will be in the market this year for a rifle to use for hunting and am > considering purchasing (NIB) the Remington 700 Mountain Rifle (.270 Win.). > After reading the many threads concerning the AD reported by CBS, I am > wondering if this a wise purchase. I understand that the trigger was > modified/ill mantained on that particular rifle. I also read many posts > reporting similar ADs. I also read many posts touting the reliability of the > 700. I understand poor mantainence and/or poor adjustment of the trigger could > cause an unsafe condition and the importance of having a qualified gunsmith > perform any trigger adjustments. So is the 700 a wise choice?

   The 700 has been one of the most popular rifles made for decades.  It’s probably one of the most numerous guns in sheer volume sold.  If there actually were problems with it, you’d hear about it.   You don’t see the TV making a fuss about cars crashing when people wear the tire completely bald, do you?  : ) steve Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>I’m not sure how Remington sets triggers on factory rifles these days.  Was >my MTN rifles 9lbs pull a fluke?  Was the BGS 4 lbs. pull also a fluke?  I >don’t know but the inconsistency of it means you will probably have to do a >trigger job.

I’ve bought two Remington’s in the last year, a 30-06 Mtn Rifle and a Model 7 in 7mm-08.  I adjusted both triggers to 4 lbs or so.  The trigger on the Mtn rifle was nice and crisp, but was (I’d guess) 7-9 lbs.  The M7 trigger was not very crisp, and was even heavier.  However, now it’s at 4 lbs with the creep taken out.  On the mountain rifle I didn’t touch the other adjustment screws since I liked it how it was; I just lightened the pull.  I took both rifles by the gunshop and had them hang their scale off of the triggers once I got them right.  Also tested the safety, slammed the bolt home, slammed the butt o the ground with a cocked pin, etc.  All seems well… So from my experience, I’d say the triggers are kind of variable. Worst trigger recently (tried, not owned) was on one of those Browning lever guns (BLR?).  That trigger had just about everything wrong that it could have wrong.  That was surprising! -jeff Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> Go to a library or bookstore and look for "Gunsmithing: Rifles" by > Patrick Sweeney (1999), ISBN: 0-87341-665-1.  The chapter on "Trigger > Work" explicitly discusses the Remington 700 triggers. >     -jc-

Thanks much John!  This is exactly what I needed. Tommy Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

><snip> >I’ve bought two Remington’s in the last year, a 30-06 Mtn Rifle and a > Model 7 in 7mm-08.  I adjusted both triggers to 4 lbs or so. ><snip> >I’m going to ask the question that nobody has dared to ask in all the

"Model 700 >Accidental Discharge" posts that I’ve seen. > Does anyone have any instructions on how to adjust Remington model 700 >triggers?

Do a search for "snipercountry.com".  It’s there.  It’s not hard. -jeff Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>Why would you load a high powered rifle in a house in the first place? >Return to gun safety 101. >Randy

This has already been pointed out on the list, but she was outside and shot through a horse trailer. More at: http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,270170-412,00.shtml Obviously a violation of gun safety though! I was one of the early posters on this topic and mistakenly said she was in a mobile home at the time of the accident and someone corrected me. As I recall, she was during the interview and demonstrating what happened, but not at the time of the accident. I appreciated the correction because we should not be misstating the facts (as I belive CBS did). The "TALK FORUMS" on HuntAmerica have quite a bit of info on this too: http://www.huntamerica.com My opinion is that we need to stand behind Remington on this–unsafe gun handling is the cause of this accident. There are a lot of references to Remington acknowledging a safety defect in internal memos, but as I read them it is only through deliberate manipulation–"tricked" as Remington states it–pulling the trigger in various stages of safety engagement. John Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> <snip> > I’m going to ask the question that nobody has dared to ask in all the "Model 700 > Accidental Discharge" posts that I’ve seen. >  Does anyone have any instructions on how to adjust Remington model 700 > triggers?

Go to a library or bookstore and look for "Gunsmithing: Rifles" by Patrick Sweeney (1999), ISBN: 0-87341-665-1.  The chapter on "Trigger Work" explicitly discusses the Remington 700 triggers.     -jc- Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I’d feel good about carrying a 700 any day. The mud Dan Rather throws don’t stick. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

<snip> I’ve bought two Remington’s in the last year, a 30-06 Mtn Rifle and a > Model 7 in 7mm-08.  I adjusted both triggers to 4 lbs or so.

<snip> I’m going to ask the question that nobody has dared to ask in all the "Model 700 Accidental Discharge" posts that I’ve seen.  Does anyone have any instructions on how to adjust Remington model 700 triggers?  I had a copy from some magazine article at one time but I can’t locate it now. I know Remington recommends that end users never do their own trigger adjustment, but considering today’s litigious society, what else could they say? Please don’t bother to reply to "take it to a competent gunsmith".  I try to do all of my own smithing and I accept the liability that comes with it. TIA, Tommy Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>A safety has to be absolutely safe >on a high powered rifle since there is no place to point it in a people area >safely except in a basement.

There is NO such thing as an "absolutely safe" safety. If your muzzle is pointed where an accidental discharge can do damage – - – it is the safety between your ears that needs to be engaged. Randy Wakeman Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> >A safety has to be absolutely safe >on a high powered rifle since there is no place to point it in a people area >safely except in a basement. > There is NO such thing as an "absolutely safe" safety. If your muzzle is > pointed where an accidental discharge can do damage – - – it is the safety > between your ears that needs to be engaged. > Randy Wakeman

So always work in a basement where there is, in effect, a berm 360 degrees I guess. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> > >A safety has to be absolutely safe > >on a high powered rifle since there is no place to point it in a people area > >safely except in a basement. > There is NO such thing as an "absolutely safe" safety. If your muzzle is > pointed where an accidental discharge can do damage – - – it is the safety > between your ears that needs to be engaged. > Randy Wakeman > So always work in a basement where there is, in effect, a berm 360 degrees I > guess.

Not necessarily.   Why the heck are you chambering a live cartridge in a bolt action rifle when you’re indoors?   Or if you do, why are you engaging and disengaging the safety with a round chambered in the house? That seems like the "mental" safety is failing and you’re asking for a guaranteed mechanical override on human stupidity. That’s what we call looking for a hardware solution to a software problem. Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>So is the 700 a wise choice?

Absolutely.  Ask any competition shooter, most use a 700 action. — Randy in Alaska Visit my page…  http://home.gci.net/~randyinalaska Life Member, North American Hunting Club Life Member, North American Fishing Club Member, Varmint Hunters Association Member, Alaska Trappers Association Member, National Rifle Association Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.hunting Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 7:37 PM > A safety has to be absolutely safe > on a high powered rifle since there is no place to point it in a people area > safely except in a basement.  Such a gun will penetrate too many house walls in a > neighborhood to say it must simply be pointed down range and all will be safe.     Why would you load a high powered rifle in a house in the first place? Return to gun safety 101. Randy Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I will be in the market this year for a rifle to use for hunting and am > considering purchasing (NIB) the Remington 700 Mountain Rifle (.270 Win.). > After reading the many threads concerning the AD reported by CBS, I am > wondering if this a wise purchase. I understand that the trigger was > modified/ill mantained on that particular rifle. I also read many posts > reporting similar ADs. I also read many posts touting the reliability of the > 700. I understand poor mantainence and/or poor adjustment of the trigger could > cause an unsafe condition and the importance of having a qualified gunsmith > perform any trigger adjustments. So is the 700 a wise choice?

Of course it is.   Don’t change your mind because of this media attention at this time.  For every M700 that has "accidentally" fired you can probably find a M77, M70, A-Bolt, etc…..   In my experience most "accidental" discharges where the result of the finger being on the trigger.  :) A better word would be "unintentional discharge". And as you pointed out there is usually issues of poor maintenance or improper trigger adjustment.  Most gunsmiths will charge you under $50 to adjust a Remington M700 to about 3 lbs. of pull.  My gunsmith  (who is also an authorized Remington repair smith) will only adjust Remington M700s to 3.5 lbs. of pull.   But if you do adjust the trigger on a Remington and send it back to Remington they will most likely charge you for a new trigger. The Remington M700 factory trigger is one of the finest in the business (for factory triggers that is).  The mechanical safety is not my favorite for "safeness" like the Ruger M77  MKII or Winchester type safeties but it is sure faster to use in the field.  I have many times had difficult getting the safety off on a M77 MK II under field conditions especially when using gloves and needing a snapshot.  But the Rem M700 safety is faster and easier to operate with gloves than the Ruger or Winchester.  But the Ruger or Winchester is a better safety. Factory triggers from Remington are kind of weird lately.  Of my last 3 new M700s one trigger was 4.5 lbs., one was 9 lbs., and one was 4.0 lbs.   They were on a Varmint Rifle, Mountain Rifle, and Big Game Synthetic rifle. Strange the BGS in .416 Rem Mag has a 4 lbs. trigger while the MTN rifle has a 9lbs trigger.  I had the Varmint and MTN rifle triggers adjusted by my smith to 3.5 lbs. I’m not sure how Remington sets triggers on factory rifles these days.  Was my MTN rifles 9lbs pull a fluke?  Was the BGS 4 lbs. pull also a fluke?  I don’t know but the inconsistency of it means you will probably have to do a trigger job. Lite > TIA > Stephan > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

I will be in the market this year for a rifle to use for hunting and am considering purchasing (NIB) the Remington 700 Mountain Rifle (.270 Win.). After reading the many threads concerning the AD reported by CBS, I am wondering if this a wise purchase. I understand that the trigger was modified/ill mantained on that particular rifle. I also read many posts reporting similar ADs. I also read many posts touting the reliability of the 700. I understand poor mantainence and/or poor adjustment of the trigger could cause an unsafe condition and the importance of having a qualified gunsmith perform any trigger adjustments. So is the 700 a wise choice? TIA Stephan Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>So is the 700 a wise choice?

It always has been! Randy Wakeman Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

shot in rifled bbl

Question:

Hi D: Yes. Tom >     Can anyone tell me if it is safe to put a typical #6 type shotshell > through a rifled slug gun? I realize that the pattern would be terrible > but is it safe to try it?  T.I.A. >                              Paul. > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.hunting Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 5:59 AM >     Can anyone tell me if it is safe to put a typical #6 type shotshell > through a rifled slug gun? I realize that the pattern would be terrible > but is it safe to try it?  T.I.A. Yes, it is safe to do. Just be sure you don’t shoot 3-inch shells in a 2 3/4-inch chamber. Julio. >                              Paul. > Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>    Can anyone tell me if it is safe to put a typical #6 type shotshell >through a rifled slug gun? I realize that the pattern would be terrible >but is it safe to try it?  T.I.A. >                             Paul.

It is safe (I’ve done it too).  Patterns will (as you note) open quickly, but I know one guy who uses a shotgun with a rifled choke (not the entire barrel rifled though) for ruffed grouse hunting at VERY short ranges in thick cover.  He likes a big pattern up close! (and he gets a lot of grouse too!). John Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

    Can anyone tell me if it is safe to put a typical #6 type shotshell through a rifled slug gun? I realize that the pattern would be terrible but is it safe to try it?  T.I.A.                              Paul. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>  Can anyone tell me if it is safe to put a typical #6 type shotshell >through a rifled slug gun?

It will work without blowing up anything but the pattern. Look at it this way, a saboted slug is nothing more than a congealed load of shot. ED Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

suntan lotion

Question:

My son is going to Philmont Scout ranch in New Mexico this weekend . Every other word is bear precautions. I read an old thread from a guy up east and he said "to get non odorifous" ? I think it means no scent- Does anybody know of a no smell suntan lotion? I kinda like the kid and I don’t want to turn him into bait! How about any suggestions besides frogs or shade? thanks- They will hike 71 miles in 10 days- go from 3500′ to 11,800′ altitude. He has been training now, really hard for a 3-4 weeks carrying a pack that goes about 45 lb. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> My son is going to Philmont Scout ranch in New Mexico this weekend . > Every other word is bear precautions. I read an old thread from a guy up > east and he said "to get non odorifous" ? I think it means no scent- Does > anybody know of a no smell suntan lotion? I kinda like the kid and I don’t > want to turn him into > bait! How about any suggestions besides frogs or shade? > thanks- They will hike 71 miles in 10 days- go from 3500′ to 11,800′ > altitude. He has been training now, really hard for a 3-4 weeks carrying a > pack that goes about 45 lb.

Zinc Oxide always worked in the old days (the white grease the life guards put on their noses).  I do not know if it has an SPF or not.  I think it simply works like an umbrella i.e., sun just doesn’t get through at all.  Some of those oils do smell like food.  My daughter used one which smelled like coconuts (Hawaiian Tropic?) and it would be a bad idea around bear as it really smelled like a cake or something..   Look for something lifeguards buy ("professional sun tan oil"?) as I suspect they would tire of food smells or perfumes quickly. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Chris, The kids are going to be packing food, snacks, soap, toothpaste,and all other sorts of bear attracting stuff, to say nothing of occasionally wiping their hands on their clothing while eating.  Scent-free suntan lotion is probably the least of the problems.  I’m constantly amazed by bears’ sense of smell. If he’s going into an area where the bears are hunted, the danger is minimal, odds are he won’t even see one.  If he is in a group, he becomes even safer.  Most aggressive black bears won’t take on as few as two people, at least that’s what my hunting partner and I have experienced. There have been very rare cases where one has meandered into a crowd of tourists to pick out his "Meals on wheels" or rather "meat on feet". To give yourself some peace of mind, and your son some protection, get him a good, LARGE container of bear spray (it usually comes with a belt holster).  This is about the only thing, other than a decent firearm, that will successfully work on a determined bear.  Oh, yeah, you NEVER play dead with a black bear, and only sometimes with a grizzly.  Don’t leave the bear spray in its shrink wrap package, pack it on your hip, and definitely don’t test it indoors!  A short shot will clear the house ;o) If you want some real bear attack facts and stories to keep you up at night, check out Gary Shelton’s web site and get his books.  The guy knows of what he speaks.  He’s given courses to hundreds of people who work daily in bear country, usually without guns. http://www.bearattacksurvival.com/cabc/index.html That looks like a great trip he’s headed on.  He’ll come back with lots of great memories and a tale or two.  Wish I still had the steel in my legs for such an outing. KB "Grizzly bear, good bear, Mike.  You shoot him, he come toward you!  Not like black bear, go run in the bushes, where you gotta go after him! Grizzly bear he always come toward you!" Vincent Johnny – BC guide Kyle Berry  Dawson Creek, BC Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> My son is going to Philmont Scout ranch in New Mexico this weekend . > Every other word is bear precautions. I read an old thread from a guy up > east and he said "to get non odorifous" ? I think it means no scent- Does > anybody know of a no smell suntan lotion? I kinda like the kid and I don’t > want to turn him into > bait! How about any suggestions besides frogs or shade? > thanks- They will hike 71 miles in 10 days- go from 3500′ to 11,800′ > altitude. He has been training now, really hard for a 3-4 weeks carrying a > pack that goes about 45 lb.

On that kind of hike in hot weather, they’ll be plenty "gamey" with or without suntan lotion. By the third day, he’ll be able to stun a bear from 100 yards. I wouldn’t worry about the lotion. Dick Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>My son is going to Philmont Scout ranch in New Mexico this weekend . >Every other word is bear precautions. I read an old thread from a guy up >east and he said "to get non odorifous" ? I think it means no scent- Does >anybody know of a no smell suntan lotion? I kinda like the kid and I don’t >want to turn him into >bait! How about any suggestions besides frogs or shade? >thanks- They will hike 71 miles in 10 days- go from 3500′ to 11,800′

unless he plans on bathing every day, the suntan lotion might be the least of his problems, odor wise.  Anyway,  I’d consider a very light long sleeve shirt, hat with a brim, long pants and skip the lotion. Roy D. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

my dads 5mm

Question:

Hi Ray, I saw your post about 5mm remintons. I have one that my dad bought and used for fall turkey in pa. I also have about five or six boxes of ammo, but I don’t have a clue as to what they are worth. any idea? Ive only shot the gun about half a dozen times. You are right it is a nice gun . any info would be appreciated, thanks. Randy Phipps Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

Randy and others with the 5mm’s There is a company in Utah, I think that will modify the rifle to use centerfire reloadable cases.  I don’t know the price, but I think the bolt is changed and some other small mods.  There was just  a thread on this on the T/C disscusion list.  If interested email me and I will try to get more info, or someone from the list may see this and post it here. Mike >Hi Ray, I saw your post about 5mm remintons. I have one that my dad >bought and used for fall turkey in pa. I also have about five or six >boxes of ammo, but I don’t have a clue as to what they are worth. any >idea? Ive only shot the gun about half a dozen times. You are right it >is a nice gun . any info would be appreciated, >thanks. >Randy Phipps >Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: >        http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ >To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

Shepherd Scopes – comments?

Question:

I apologize if this is a repost.  I am trying to get some input from people on teh Shepherd line of scopes.  $575 is a lot of money to spend on a scope, adn I wish to be sure that they are all that teh catalog says they are.  If you, or someone you know, has personal experience with these, please let me know.  Thanks in advance. Tim Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I apologize if this is a repost.  I am trying to get some input from > people on teh Shepherd line of scopes.  $575 is a lot of money to spend > on a scope, adn I wish to be sure that they are all that teh catalog > says they are.  If you, or someone you know, has personal experience > with these, please let me know.  Thanks in advance. > Tim

I have a buddy that bought one for his rifle but it was more of a tactical model scope. I shot it last Labor day weekend. I thought the optics were very clear and it was a nice scope. He seems to be happy with it but I don’t know if I would of paid the price for it. I didn’t notice that much of an improvement over the Simmons I have on my rifle. It does have a neat one shot centering feature. I didn’t get a chance to try it in low light to see how it performed then Kevin Volz Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Kevin I have one mounted on my 340 Weatherby and with the appropriate ammo that the rangefinding reticle is set up for it has performed flawlessly out to he 400yds I have used it at. The optics appear clear and bright. The scope has held center even with all the pounding a 340 produces. Nick http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

> I have one mounted on my 340 Weatherby and with the appropriate ammo that > the rangefinding reticle is set up for it has performed flawlessly out to he > 400yds I have used it at. The optics appear clear and bright. The scope has > held center even with all the pounding a 340 produces.

Nick, How many rounds has it put up with so far?  What sort of mounts and rings are you using?  Good hunting!  Michael Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

>I apologize if this is a repost.  I am trying to get some input from >people on teh Shepherd line of scopes.  $575 is a lot of money to spend >on a scope, adn I wish to be sure that they are all that teh catalog >says they are.  If you, or someone you know, has personal experience >with these, please let me know.  Thanks in advance.

I recently got to look at one mounted on someone else’s rifle.  In bright light there was no chrona effect which was nice.  The lens coatings on the outside looked normal and what not.  In the dusk environment (later same day) the scope had enough light gathering to I wasn’t impressed with the ghosting of the image in the evening though.  This scope was very dusty and had lots of dust on the lenses, and when looking at the tree bark I noticed almost a fog around the edge of the field of view.  I hate to use fog, but that is what it looked like, not a chrona effect, but a white haze.  Cleaning may have taken care of that, but I didn’t have my lens pen and it wasn’t my scope. I have though about getting one of those scopes for a long time. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/

Response:

Needed: INfo onthe new KNIGHT Disc Rifle

Question:

Just got back from the North American Hunting Club jamboree in Las Vegas.  While there I had an opportunity to try out the Knight 50 cal disk muzzle loader.  Loaded with the new pyrodex pellets and a sabot load the rifle consistantly fired tight shots even in the rain. Everyone was amazed that these rifles continued to perform flawlessly under the most adverse conditions I’ve ever seen.  The triggers were crisp and there was no noticable lag from trigger pull to bang!  I’d reccomend one in an instant. K. Chiatello, Fremont CA — Calvin and Hobbes (Bill Watterson): "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us."

Response:

Just a side note.  I just got my Colorado big game booklet and they specified this year that "pellet" black powder is illegal.  I didn’t know what they meant until I read this thread.  SO, if you purchase this rifle, be aware that you can’t hunt with it during the regular "muzzle loading" season in Colorado.  Other states may have the same regulation. Also, you can’t use a sabot in Colorado either.  Only a cloth patch. Ken Yoder

Response:

-snip > what they meant until I read this thread.  SO, if you purchase this rifle, > be aware that you can’t hunt with it during the regular "muzzle loading" > season in Colorado.  Other states may have the same regulation.

-snip The rifle can be used if you use regular black powder though. (Unless there is a specific ban against the gun itself)  The DISC can be used with normal black powder. Todd Alexander                                 Mechanical Dynamics,Inc Engineering Analyst                            2301 Commonwealth Blvd. (810)826-6461                                    Ann Arbor, MI   48105 "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms…"–Samuel Adams

Response:

 Rifle > I’ve had the opportunity to handle this rifle, although I haven’t shot

 >it, and here is my honest opinion.  >The rifle looks and feels good.  I like the stock, it fits real nice.  >The bolt action is much smoother and better feeling than the Rem. 700  >ML.  The trigger is just as nice as the rest of the Knight triggers.  >As far as looks and feel go, I think this is a great gun.  As far as  >the 3200 fps, I’m kind of leery of that number.  The Knight brochure I  >have in front of me right now, claims 2,000 fps with a 250gr Red Hot  >bullet in the new high pressure sabot using 150gr of the pellets.  >Based on my past experience with Knight’s claims, I’ll say that this is  >obtainable.  However, 150 grains of powder in a 7lb rifle is going to  >pack on heck of a wallop.  I’d be curious to see if it is significant  >enough to cause flinching problems in many people.  Especially when my  >90gr of FFg work just fine for the distances I’ve been shooting with  >my Wolverine. Cabelas carries these rifles and they state that they will achieve  almost 2000 fps with the load you described. That 2000 fps is  honking on for a Muzzle Loader. 3200 fps is/was/has to be a typo. I wouldn t want to shoot 150 grains very many times. OK, call me a woos!  >Here are the negatives as I see them.  You have to use the plastic DISCs  >to shoot the gun.  I’m told they can be used a couple of times, but the  >replacement cost is around $15/6, also the pellets are much more expensive  >than regular powder. Cabela sells the DISCs for $13.99 per 25. Still pretty healthy price if you shoot a lot. The Pyrodex 50 grain pellets are $17.99 per 100 in 50 caliber only. I understand that they will be making other sizes, both in grain weight and caliber. > So if cost is an issue, you may want to try a different

 >in-line.  In addition, the pellets have to be loaded with a certain  >orientation to ignite properly which leaves room for mistakes should you  >need a quick second shot.  Finally, the gun is going to run somewhere  >near $400 I believe which is more than you need to spend if you’re on any  >kind of budget.  >If I were in the market for a good gun, I’d stick with my Knight Wolverine  >with the thumbhole stock.  It hasn’t let me down, and runs for a fair  >amount less than the DISC rifle.  Maybe as the DISC gains popularity, the  >pellets and DISCs will drop in price, but I’m going to wait a while before  >jumping in and getting one. I do believe that the Prodex pellets can be shot in any muzzle loader. From one who has never had a misfire, I think that I can do without the DISC at that price. My  Knight T-5 is still plenty of gun for my purposes. BUT, it is kinda nice getting a new one every now and then,. ;o) Traditions makes a Bolt Action muzzleloader that might be worth looking at. It sell for $259 & $279 for the blued and nickel respectively. > One last note, if you do decide to buy an in-line, and your state allows

 >the use of sabot bullets, get some of the Precision Rifle bullets.  They  >are by far the best on the market today.  You can get more info and order  Good looking bullets. They are also on the web, but I have misplaced the URL. Todd, If you get your hands on one to shoot, let us know what it will do. Of course we already know it is capable of   downrange terminal energy . ;o)  >Good luck, and happy hunting. > Todd Alexander

Woody Williams If you re too busy to hunt, you re too busy

Response:

I am in the market to purchase a new in-line blackpowder  rifle and recently saw an article a friend cut out of a magazine  ( he couldn’t even remember which magazine ) and it described the new "disc" rifle in 50 cal. from Knight. It flaunted up to 3200fps with 390gr maxi-balls and 150 Gr of pyrodex "disc" powder in convenient plugs ( 3 to be exact at 50 gr ea.) besides #11 percussion caps a #209 shotshell primer could be used in it’s place. This bolt action rifle  seemed too good to be true and I would like some input before I decide on buying it. — BIGJAY

Response:

> I am in the market to purchase a new in-line blackpowder  rifle and > recently saw an article a friend cut out of a magazine  ( he couldn’t even > remember which magazine ) and it described the new "disc" rifle in 50 cal. > from Knight. It flaunted up to 3200fps with 390gr maxi-balls and 150 Gr of > pyrodex "disc" powder in convenient plugs ( 3 to be exact at 50 gr ea.) > besides #11 percussion caps a #209 shotshell primer could be used in it’s > place. This bolt action rifle  seemed too good to be true and I would like > some input before I decide on buying it. > — > BIGJAY

I’ve had the opportunity to handle this rifle, although I haven’t shot it, and here is my honest opinion. The rifle looks and feels good.  I like the stock, it fits real nice. The bolt action is much smoother and better feeling than the Rem. 700 ML.  The trigger is just as nice as the rest of the Knight triggers. As far as looks and feel go, I think this is a great gun.  As far as the 3200 fps, I’m kind of leery of that number.  The Knight brochure I have in front of me right now, claims 2,000 fps with a 250gr Red Hot bullet in the new high pressure sabot using 150gr of the pellets. Based on my past experience with Knight’s claims, I’ll say that this is obtainable.  However, 150 grains of powder in a 7lb rifle is going to pack on heck of a wallop.  I’d be curious to see if it is significant enough to cause flinching problems in many people.  Especially when my 90gr of FFg work just fine for the distances I’ve been shooting with my Wolverine. Here are the negatives as I see them.  You have to use the plastic DISCs to shoot the gun.  I’m told they can be used a couple of times, but the replacement cost is around $15/6, also the pellets are much more expensive than regular powder.  So if cost is an issue, you may want to try a different in-line.  In addition, the pellets have to be loaded with a certain orientation to ignite properly which leaves room for mistakes should you need a quick second shot.  Finally, the gun is going to run somewhere near $400 I believe which is more than you need to spend if you’re on any kind of budget. If I were in the market for a good gun, I’d stick with my Knight Wolverine with the thumbhole stock.  It hasn’t let me down, and runs for a fair amount less than the DISC rifle.  Maybe as the DISC gains popularity, the pellets and DISCs will drop in price, but I’m going to wait a while before jumping in and getting one. One last note, if you do decide to buy an in-line, and your state allows the use of sabot bullets, get some of the Precision Rifle bullets.  They are by far the best on the market today.  You can get more info and order Good luck, and happy hunting. Todd Alexander                                 Mechanical Dynamics,Inc Engineering Analyst                            2301 Commonwealth Blvd. (810)826-6461                                    Ann Arbor, MI   48105 "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms…"–Samuel Adams

Response:

Make A Wish Fallout

Question:

> >Agreed. It’s good to see Make-A-Wish holding firm. But, the Associated >Press article I read stated the moose hunt was granted a full month >before the bear flap ever hit the papers. > But, They are still sticking by it & that’s GOOD ! > Woody Williams

Absolutely. Didn’t mean to imply otherwise. Darren    |  505-356-2697                     America Online – DW Marcy  |

Response:

> And, by the way, I hope we’ve all contributed (what we can) to the MAWF > in MN?  I only got around to sending in my check earlier this week.

The Bryan-College Station Retriever Club will be sending in our donation of $100 this week…. Chris Barnes                                 (409) 846-3273 (home) http://helper.tamu.edu/STAFF/cbarnes/   <— new address

Response:

Re-posted to rec.hunting 5-24-96  with Jeff Kempe’s permission; Woody Williams If you’re too busy to hunt, you’re too busy. Subj:   Re: Make A Wish Fallout Woody… I’ve just posted the following to Talk.Politics.Animals, didn’t want to cross post it because I expect a tweaked response from the nuts and I know Rec.Hunting is moderated. If you think it worthwhile, use it as you please. Jeff We ve all watched – disappointed – over the last several years as temper tantrums by the sanctimonious have achieved their desired results.  The Animal Rights Industry has been particularly adept at the tactic, capitalizing on the animal ignorance of the multitude and an abundance of pictures of cute fuzzies in various stages of torture in order to apply the guilt and bend otherwise thinking people into capitulation. The majority of the victories, however, came before people organized and fought back.  The biomedical community was pummeled while it hunkered down in a defensive position, but has gained back all the ground it lost since going on the offensive.  The ARI thought dog and cat owners easy targets, but found that breed clubs organized practically overnight when assaulted with spurious breeding bans.  Farmers have united, ranchers have united; trappers, hunters and fishermen have united. All of which makes this morning s news regarding Make-A-Wish that much more satisfying. I d read early in the bear hunt controversy some stories spun with the impression that MAWF – corporate – was standing by the Minnesota chapter s decision to send the young man to Alaska, but might reexamine its policy.  There was even a breaking of the ranks by the LA chapter, afraid as it was of losing the support of noted deep thinker Pierce Brosnon, the same Pierce Brosnon who couldn t understand why a young man would rather spend a week in Alaska with his father than on the set with him. Those stories, though, appear to have been written with considerable journalistic license.  I think the overwhelming financial and moral support Make-A-Wish has received from those of us happy to see them take a stand has helped solidify their resolve:  They ve just announced they re granting another young man a moose hunt, to take place in September. When asked, the spokesperson said simply:  "We re not in the business of granting only politically correct wishes."  Amen. The fact that this was a lead story, of course, means MAWF will again be inundated with self righteous indignance;  that the announcement comes in spite of that says even more for their character and integrity as an organization. But I m willing to bet the outcry is half of before:  As any parent knows, temper tantrums ignored have a tendency to eventually (poof!) fade away.

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This is most excellent news!! Does anyone know how to get a hold of the article? — *                                                              * * If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting * * them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no   * * good reason.                                                 * *                          Jack Handey                         *

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> stand has helped solidify their resolve:  They ve just announced they re > granting another young man a moose hunt, to take place in September. > When asked, the spokesperson said simply:  "We re not in the business of > granting only politically correct wishes."  Amen.

Agreed. It’s good to see Make-A-Wish holding firm. But, the Associated Press article I read stated the moose hunt was granted a full month before the bear flap ever hit the papers. For what it’s worth. Darren    |  505-356-2697                     America Online – DW Marcy  |

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To all To see another example of how the press manipulates the non-hunters, not anti’s but just your average person without a strong feeling one way or the other, check out the May 27th issue of Newsweek page 64.  I live in Alaska and don’t often see wild bears sitting like this.  It reminds me of a big Teddy bear, which is the whole point.  I wonder what *Teddy* Roosevelt would say to see his bear used to foster anti hunting sympathy. I think it’s great that MAWF is not being politically correct.  In my mind political correctness is not in line with the founding fathers ideas for our great nation.  Was the Declaration Of Independance Politically correct or the Boston Tea Party? Lance

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>Agreed. It’s good to see Make-A-Wish holding firm. But, the Associated >Press article I read stated the moose hunt was granted a full month >before the bear flap ever hit the papers. >For what it’s worth. >Darren

But, They are still sticking by it & that’s GOOD ! Woody Williams If you’re too busy to hunt, you’re too busy.

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: >Agreed. It’s good to see Make-A-Wish holding firm. But, the Associated : >Press article I read stated the moose hunt was granted a full month : >before the bear flap ever hit the papers. : > : >For what it’s worth. : > : >Darren : > : > : But, They are still sticking by it & that’s GOOD ! : Woody Williams : If you’re too busy to hunt, you’re too busy. And, by the way, I hope we’ve all contributed (what we can) to the MAWF in MN?  I only got around to sending in my check earlier this week. — * Todd Lofton                                                   * * University of Nebraska – Lincoln                              * * -> These opinions I express are mine and have absolutely <-   * * -> nothing to do with who I work for, with, or against.  <-   *

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PVC deer feeders

Question:

A friend of mine invested a fair bit of money and time into an automated feeder, trying to attract deer to his stand. Anyway, apparently the big momma black bear and her cub thought the feed wasn’t coming out fast enough… They shredded it. I laughed. Hysterically.  DJ MacIntyre in Quebec. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

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A while back there were several postings on making deer feeders out of PVC pipe.  If anyone has information on these feeders, I would appreciate the instructions on how to construct one and how they work. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

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What  I use is a 30 gallon plastic drum painted camo colors. Mount it on  treated 2×4 legs bolted to the side such that theu legs taper out for  stability.  Cut the legs so the bottom of the drum isabout24" off the ground.  Drill 3holes – 5/8" dia. in the bottom and run some small light chain thru the  holes to "meter" the flow of whole kernal corn.  The idea is that  when a deer  sticks it head under the barrel to get at thecorn on the ground, its head will  move the chains hanging down allowing more corn to fall on the ground.  You’ll  have to play with the hole size to match the chain size to get the desired  result.  Try to find barrels that have a screw type lid on top to minimize  moisture getting into the feed. Realize this is not the PVC pipe deal you may be looking for but it’s  something.   Please forward any PVC "recipes" you get to me.  I’d apreciate  it.  Thx, Phil. Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

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